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Running the winch cable over the top

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  • #1

    Running the winch cable over the top

    I was watching the video of "King Solomen's Mines" where they are showing the dodge trucks. When one truck is stuck in the river they pull it out with the power wagon winch but I noticed that the cable is pulling top side, not under like it's supposed to. Will this cause damage to the worm gears pulling this way?

    http://www.tcm.com/mediaroom/index.jsp?cid=60965
    1949 B-1 PW
    1950 B-2 PW
    1965 WM300
    1968 D200 camper special (W200 conversion)
    1970 Challenger RT 383
    1987 Ramcharger 4x4
    1991.5 W250 diesel
    1999 Jeep Cherokee limited 4x4
    2008 Jeep Wrangler Sahara
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  • #2
    Originally posted by Steve G View Post
    I was watching the video of "King Solomen's Mines" where they are showing the dodge trucks. When one truck is stuck in the river they pull it out with the power wagon winch but I noticed that the cable is pulling top side, not under like it's supposed to. Will this cause damage to the worm gears pulling this way?

    http://www.tcm.com/mediaroom/index.jsp?cid=60965
    I would think not. We will see how anyone else may comment....
    Power Wagon Advertiser monthly magazine, editor & publisher.


    Why is it that the inside of old truck cabs smell so good?

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    • #3
      Steve,
      It has to do with right hand or left hand gear sets, and the position of the worm brake.
      Most all Power Wagons as I know were right hand gears so the cable winds from the bottom.
      that's not to say some were not left hand.
      So if the winch is correct with right hand gears and the brake band adjusting nut is on the bottom of the cap pointing to the passenger side it winds from the bottom.
      If you wind from the top you should(must) at least, change the brake band cap to the top.
      This has to do with the brake to properly hold the load and not dragging hard when winching.
      Also PTO speeds are different in wind/unwind.

      Besides anything is possible in the movies,LOL

      TGP
      WDX & Misc. Pics.
      http://www.t137.com/cpg/index.php?cat=10010
      "47" Dodge WDX WW
      "52" Dodge M-37 WW
      "54" Willys M38A1
      "65" Kaiser M35A1 WW
      "77" Chev. K-30 400T,205,4.56 "No-Spin"
      "84" Chev, K-30 Cummins 6-BTA 400,205,3.73Locker
      "86" Chev, M1028A2 (K30) 6.2,400.205,4.56 Locker
      "99" Dodge Durango "Limited Slip"
      "99" Dodge 3500 CTD 4x4"No-Spin"

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      • #4
        My 72 LU-2 is wound to pull top side. Is this incorrect? It winches IN with the transmission in forward, winches OUT in reverse. NP435 tranny and the PTO runs off the 205 t-case. The way that the spool sits down below the centerline of the fairlead makes this appear proper to me.

        This seems correct as should I ever need to winch myself out of a situation using both the wheels and winch, they'd be working together to get my truck moved towards the anchor point of the winch hook.

        Nice movie clip BTW. I'm gonna rent that one sometime, if available.

        Bucky

        Comment

        • #5
          I believe running the cable over the top on a LU2 is correct.
          However I'm not that familiar with them.
          My comments were directed at the Braden MU 2 which are completely different.
          TGP
          WDX & Misc. Pics.
          http://www.t137.com/cpg/index.php?cat=10010
          "47" Dodge WDX WW
          "52" Dodge M-37 WW
          "54" Willys M38A1
          "65" Kaiser M35A1 WW
          "77" Chev. K-30 400T,205,4.56 "No-Spin"
          "84" Chev, K-30 Cummins 6-BTA 400,205,3.73Locker
          "86" Chev, M1028A2 (K30) 6.2,400.205,4.56 Locker
          "99" Dodge Durango "Limited Slip"
          "99" Dodge 3500 CTD 4x4"No-Spin"

          Comment

          • #6
            Gene Buch, Fairfield, IA, used the MU-2 on his WDX to move round hay bails. He had a track that ran from the radiator cowel area, backwards over the cab, that the cable ran in and connected to the bail spike mounted at the rear of the bed.

            He wound his cable off the top of the drum, but I do not recall if he repositioned the brake band...

            C.D.
            1949 B-1 PW (Gus)
            1955 C-3 PW (Woodrow)
            2001 Dodge 2500 (Dish...formerly Maney's Mopar)
            1978 Suzuki GS1000EC (fulfills the need...the need for speed)
            1954 Ford 860 tractor
            1966 Chrysler LS 16 sailboat (as yet un-named)
            UVA UVAM VIVENDO VARIA FITS

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            • #7
              The gears don't care if they're being driven from the front side or the backside of the teeth. Brake band orientation DOES matter- you'll burn the band out real quick if it's oriented incorrectly, and good replacements are getting scarce and expensive. The haul in speed would change for top winding- I believe PTO rpm is 37% of engine rpm in counter-engine rotation, and 47% with engine rotation- I'll have to check. You'd have to reverse your thinking about "Cable In" vs "Cable Out" when you engage the PTO lever, but everything would work OK otherwise. Now it would be very convenient to have a way to run the cable to the rear when you're headed into unknown terrain, because 90% of the time you get stuck in a situation it's best to back out of.

              Comment

              • #8
                The dual output Detroit Harvester power take-off, as factory equipped on WDX-WM300 model Power-Wagons, operates at 61% of engine speed when the output shafts are rotating in enginewise direction and 47% of engine speed when rotating in counter-enginewise direction.

                The Braden MU2 winch, as factory equipped on the same trucks, was available with either right hand or left-hand gear sets. Right hand sets were the normal.

                With a right hand gear set and the cable correctly wound to the underside of the winch drum, enginewise rotation of the PTO output shafts causes cable to push off the winch drum. Counter-enginewise rotation of the PTO output shafts causes cable to feed onto the winch drum. Due to the speed difference between the two directions of rotation, at any given engine speed, cable is fed onto the drum slower than it is pushed off.

                Tom makes a good point about orientation of the brake band. Similar to brake shoes against a brake drum, the band is self-energizing against a shaft rotating in one direction, but not self-energizing if and when the shaft rotates in the opposite direction. The factory orientation of the brake band is set in regards to the gear set installed (right hand or left hand) and the resulting direction of shaft rotation required with that particular gear set in order to feed cable to the underside of the winch drum. So properly positioned, the brake band would not self-energize when feeding cable into the drum, but would self energize if a load on the cable were trying to pull it from of the drum.

                By nature, a gear and worm are self-braking to some extent. That is, the worm can turn the gear with relative ease due to the gear ratio between the two. The worm will be turning many more revolutions and much faster than the gear. However, it is much more difficult for the gear to turn the worm. One would be hard pressed to apply enough force to the winch cable to cause the gear to spin the worm. So, in reality, a brake on a worm and gear winch is not normally needed. Here is a hypothetical example of when it COULD be of benefit: If one were lowering their truck backwards down a steep hill, controlling the descent with the winch, and things got out of control to the point that the engine was over revving.

                In this scenario, with cable pulling off the drum at a high rate of speed, and with the gear turning quite fast, the worm would of course be spinning proportionally faster yet. When disengaging the clutch to slow the engine, the centrifugal force in the gear and worm could cause the drum to keep turning until the whole assembly eventually slowed to a stop. A functioning brake on the worm shaft would help the assembly to stop rotating much more quickly.

                MaineSS also made a good point about abnormal wear on a brake band that is installed incorrectly so that it self-energizes as the cable is being wound onto the drum. The band could wear out if the winch were used for long periods of time under this condition. Personally I would not worry as much about premature wear as I would about the band being ineffective when mounted incorrectly. There are other conditions that put much more wear on the brake band than winch usage.

                The rear tailshaft (to the rear of the truck) can turn either direction also, just like the winch drum, and in fact does so any time the winch is in use as the front and rear outputs in the PTO assembly are one common shaft. More importantly, any time the rear tailshaft is in use, the winch gear, worm, and shaft to the drum are turning. When using the rear tailshaft, only the winch drum is disengaged from the winch shaft and stationary.

                Most shaft driven farm and industrial equipment requires the tailshaft to operate counter-enginewise. This would cause the brake band to not self-energize when everything is set up properly. However, some farm equipment can be driven with the tailshaft turning enginewise. This could potentially cause much quicker wear on the brake band than would be the case with only winch use.

                Even more of chance of brake band wear exists when powering farm equipment from the belt pulley drive mounted to the tailshaft. The belt pulley can be mounted with the pulley positioned to either the driver side of the truck or the passenger side depending upon what kind of equipment is being operated. Shaft rotation direction would be chosen appropriately. Direction of shaft rotation may also be chosen depending upon the speed needed at the belt. It is not unusual for farm and industrial equipment to see hours of continuous use depending upon the job at hand. Brake band position, shaft rotational direction, and whether or not the band is self-energizing during all of this, would seldom be of any concern.

                Comment

                • #9
                  I don't know enough about the winch to comment, but I did enjoy the film clip. The trucks not only look great they sound great as well.

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