46 Power Wagon Restoration pt. 2

[Desoto61]

More teardown and cleanup

Since I'm having so much fun playing in oil and grease I figured I'd move on to the differentials.

These things are HEAVY! So first order was to build some sort of stand to help work on them. Some left over square tubing and a few 7/16" bolts make the uprights. With them bolted down I welded them to a piece of 3/16" plate with a hole cut to allow access to the input end.

I printed off the appropriate pages of the tech manual and grabbed the camera and some gloves and started step-tracking my way through the teardown making sure to take pics along the way.

To remove the drive shaft yoke I used a split bearing puller around the yoke. With all the horror stories I've heard about the pinion seals I took some old threaded studs I had and tacked the ends to the seal then used a puller to remove it. Maybe I lucked out or it was all the crease covering it from rusting but it came out without too much trouble.

[Alxj64]

Wow! Great tech! I dig the seal pulling technique! Thats great! Truck is looking great! Glad to see it coming along. If you ever need a hand, feel free to give me a shout since I am not too far away and would love to see this project in person.

[Desoto61]

The remainder of the teardown was pretty uneventful. Follow the instructions and take my time and the ring gear comes apart without much fuss. The pinion comes out after it.

Removing the adjuster nuts wasn't too bad, took a long rod that fit into the grooves and used it as a wrench. However to remove the nut behind the pinion seal I'm having a bit more trouble. I tried a peices of 3/16" flat stock with a cross piece welded but it's not strong enough and started to twist.

May have to see if I can get a piece of pipe and add the "teeth" needed to make it into the special pinion nut removal socket.

[Gordon Maney]

Great work!

[CSCameron]

Good Job! Fun to watch...

[JeffTheMarine]

Great write up, I plan on doing nearly the exact same setup as you minus I was thinking of trying to adapt a manual rack and pinion to the front and also use twin Dana 60 axles so get newer axles for ease of use and parts availability. There are a decent amount of parts still available but I am sure that will end some day. Plus I figured it would be easier to change rear gearing that way as I was thinking of running 4.10 gears. I want to be able to drive mine as much and as often as I like. To include freeway driving. I also plan to use the 4BT engine as it seems pretty versatile and all the parts for it are readily available since they are the same as the 6BT. I would prefer the 6BT but I have seen the massive amount of fab work that would be involved to put that in and I don't want to go down that road so the 4 should be more than enough. Plus if you figure the stock output of the 251 engine the 4bt far surpasses that and has plenty of on hand torque so I think it's a perfect repower for one of these trucks. Great work and thanks for the detail. It will make my time easier once I get it started. I wish you were closer to my coast so I could meet you in person, I may have to make a trip over there.

Jeff

[Charles Talbert]

Great write up, I plan on doing nearly the exact same setup as you minus I was thinking of trying to adapt a manual rack and pinion to the front and also use twin Dana 60 axles so get newer axles for ease of use and parts availability. There are a decent amount of parts still available but I am sure that will end some day. Plus I figured it would be easier to change rear gearing that way as I was thinking of running 4.10 gears. I want to be able to drive mine as much and as often as I like. To include freeway driving. I also plan to use the 4BT engine as it seems pretty versatile and all the parts for it are readily available since they are the same as the 6BT. I would prefer the 6BT but I have seen the massive amount of fab work that would be involved to put that in and I don't want to go down that road so the 4 should be more than enough. Plus if you figure the stock output of the 251 engine the 4bt far surpasses that and has plenty of on hand torque so I think it's a perfect repower for one of these trucks. Great work and thanks for the detail. It will make my time easier once I get it started. I wish you were closer to my coast so I could meet you in person, I may have to make a trip over there.

Jeff

Sounds like you plan a great project. You might want to give more thought to the 4.10 gearing you spoke of though, as that ratio is a little on the tall side for a standard 4BT that was used in the van appliction. Now if the one you pick is an after-cooled version, that will step it up a bit, but still not a great deal with tall gearing at all. Wanting to run at freeway speeds puts this in still a deeper gray area, don't know your intentions, but running an over-drive trans, even more. The 4BT is only rated at 105 HP, with the after-cooled versions going about 120 HP. More can be done to get extra power at a cost, but these are the standard set-ups that were in most of the van applications. True, it is more than a 251 gasser, but it is highly likely that you would have some disappointment in the responsiveness in higher trans gears, and it will also effect fuel economy in a big way if the engine is in a bind all the time trying to keep up with tall gearing.

Been there and done all this years ago, just passing the tip along. Good luck with the project.

[CSCameron]

So, what would be the optimal gearing for the 4bt/4bta in the power wagon application?

[Charles Talbert]

That's a very broad question that can also have a broad range of correct answers. Diesels can be set up over a broad scale range (up to a point) depending on the desired application and specific uses. I can't speak any further to that unless I had all the information that is required to work out the best set up for a particular application. 4BT/BTA engines have a huge range of options that can dictate best fit for the application, best performance in that given application, and a broad range of other variables. Options are not as readily available these days because these engines went out of production as new the end of Dec 2008. 99% of the engines we install are brand new from Cummins. We know what we desire to do before we order the engine. We have Cummins specs that show us all the options they offer; that enables us to order the engine already set up the best it can be for the application. No, everything does not always work out to be perfectly what we need, we still customize things to get a better fit and performance. However being as close as you can be out of the crate to what you actually need as far as both fit and performance saves us a lot of time on our part, and everything that is set up at the factory or dealer is covered under their warranty also. This eliminates the possibility of issues coming up with adjustments being made after the fact that they could claim were not authorized by Cummins.

There is much homework that needs to be done prior to making an engine choice, trans choice, gear ratio choices, specific application intentions, etc, before you spend a dime. Nobody can point you in the best direction unless they know fine details. That would have to be done by a person who either knows all or most possible options or is willing to do the research to get in the know; plus info concerning what you desire with the end product.

Sure you can just acquire an engine and make it fit; but you may or may not be happy with the performance in the end. Sometimes issues can be corrected to your satisfaction by spending more $$ after the fact, and sometimes with much disappointment you would conclude you just do not have the best set up for your application. That's why I say do your homework prior to spending $$; most likely you will find yourself much happier with the outcome; and there is a high likelyhood that you can do what you need for less $$ simply because you had a correct path mapped out to follow from the beginning.

[Desoto61]

Great write up, I plan on doing nearly the exact same setup as you minus I was thinking of trying to adapt a manual rack and pinion to the front and also use twin Dana 60 axles so get newer axles for ease of use and parts availability. There are a decent amount of parts still available but I am sure that will end some day. Plus I figured it would be easier to change rear gearing that way as I was thinking of running 4.10 gears. I want to be able to drive mine as much and as often as I like. To include freeway driving. I also plan to use the 4BT engine as it seems pretty versatile and all the parts for it are readily available since they are the same as the 6BT. I would prefer the 6BT but I have seen the massive amount of fab work that would be involved to put that in and I don't want to go down that road so the 4 should be more than enough. Plus if you figure the stock output of the 251 engine the 4bt far surpasses that and has plenty of on hand torque so I think it's a perfect repower for one of these trucks. Great work and thanks for the detail. It will make my time easier once I get it started. I wish you were closer to my coast so I could meet you in person, I may have to make a trip over there.

Jeff

Thanks, its been a learning experience for sure.
I had thought about different axles too, it solves a lot of issues, but creates just as many new ones, like steering, and mounting. There is something to be said for the Budd wheel look though.
Price wise I think it would be a wash unless you know how to do the axle modifications yourself. Though from the look of the units on my truck I'm not sure what it would take to wear one of these things out if properly built.
Its a huge undertaking, I try not to think about how much work I still have left.

Good luck with your project, post pics.

[JeffTheMarine]

Sounds like you plan a great project. You might want to give more thought to the 4.10 gearing you spoke of though, as that ratio is a little on the tall side for a standard 4BT that was used in the van appliction. Now if the one you pick is an after-cooled version, that will step it up a bit, but still not a great deal with tall gearing at all. Wanting to run at freeway speeds puts this in still a deeper gray area, don't know your intentions, but running an over-drive trans, even more. The 4BT is only rated at 105 HP, with the after-cooled versions going about 120 HP. More can be done to get extra power at a cost, but these are the standard set-ups that were in most of the van applications. True, it is more than a 251 gasser, but it is highly likely that you would have some disappointment in the responsiveness in higher trans gears, and it will also effect fuel economy in a big way if the engine is in a bind all the time trying to keep up with tall gearing.

Been there and done all this years ago, just passing the tip along. Good luck with the project.

I do appreciate the help and the input and Desoto sorry for the thread hijack here. I apologize. My plans were to run an inter cooler on it and I plan to stud most of it so that it will be sturdy. I also plan to o ring the head so that I won't have problems with the head gasket. I have seen people getting decent power out of 4BT engines with some work into them. I know that it will be no where near the output range of a 6bt but like I stated earlier I don't want to have to put that much work into changing the cab of the truck and everything else that would entail with that long of an engine. I am doing more research right now into just how much power I can get out of one and not effect reliability and still get good fuel mileage. I have heard most people get in the high 20 range and another guy claimed he was getting 32 in a FF Willys. I know a power wagon is substantially heavier than the Willys but if I can have a decent power output and still stay in the mid 20 range I would be more than pleased. I love driving old trucks there is nothing like it but every gasser I own gets less than twenty and in my opinion and from what everyone else seems to have the Cummins engines will outlast most any gas engine in longevity.


Jeff

[JeffTheMarine]

Thanks, its been a learning experience for sure.
I had thought about different axles too, it solves a lot of issues, but creates just as many new ones, like steering, and mounting. There is something to be said for the Budd wheel look though.
Price wise I think it would be a wash unless you know how to do the axle modifications yourself. Though from the look of the units on my truck I'm not sure what it would take to wear one of these things out if properly built.
Its a huge undertaking, I try not to think about how much work I still have left.

Good luck with your project, post pics.

It does create more issues but I believe in the end it would be worth the extra time spent. Like I said previous I am thinking of toying with the idea of a manual rack and pinion. I think it will be possible to do just have to make all the brackets from scratch and such. Manual rack and pinions are a lot easier to turn than standard manual gearboxs and with as bad as my shoulder is from the Marines I think I will need the help. If I can I may go with a power rack and pinion if I can figure it all out. I just had my second surgery on my shoulder and they reconstructed my entire joint, everything short of a full joint replacement which I was told I am too young for. The Navy surgeon did a number on it with the first surgery when I was still active duty. Either way I share your feelings and not wanting to think about how much work will need to be done to get everything finished. I have always loved how many partially started projects you see for sale because once people start into them and start realizing how much really needs to be done they get discouraged or in some cases take short cuts and end up with a low level end product because they are impatient and want to be able to drive it. I have been into cars since I can remember and have always loved wrenching. I have never owned anything other than a Mopar product and worked on my fair share. There is a long road ahead of me put I am hoping the pot of gold at the end of my rainbow is as great as I am picturing... LOL

Jeff

[Desoto61]

It does create more issues but I believe in the end it would be worth the extra time spent. Like I said previous I am thinking of toying with the idea of a manual rack and pinion. I think it will be possible to do just have to make all the brackets from scratch and such. Manual rack and pinions are a lot easier to turn than standard manual gearboxs and with as bad as my shoulder is from the Marines I think I will need the help. If I can I may go with a power rack and pinion if I can figure it all out.
Jeff

It's not horribly difficult to convert the stock axles to power steering. Ugly Truckling makes the bracket, you just add the steering box, convert the steering wheel, and plumb it. Once you go to modern axles, you cab get the benefit of cross-over steering but the whole steering linkage setup will need to be changed.

Power rack and pinion shouldn't be any more difficult than manual. The unit is a little bigger but otherwise they're basically the same.

[Desoto61]

Military roots

Sometimes working on this truck reminds me of the Navy ship's at work. Everything is lock tabbed, safety wired, cotter pinned, or welded for additional security. Sure it's overkill, but that's not a bad thing on a war ship or a work truck.

The ring gear is held on by a bunch of small bolts. The nuts on the back side are retained by a metal plate with lock tabs that span a pair of bolts. A small screwdriver and hammer allowed me to get behind the tabs and bend them down so the nuts could be undone. The ring gear then came loose with a few taps from a rubber mallet.

This carrier I'm sending to Charles Talbert to have it inspected and rebuilt. The rear will be getting an ARB Air Locker so no rebuild required, which is good because it does not look as good as the front carrier.

The pinion lifts right out of the carrier with two of the three bearings. The thirds is trapped behind the pinion nut. The nut has four "slots" that a special socket is supposed to fit into to allow removal. As I don't have and couldn't find this tool I made something.

I started with the piece of 3/16" plate cut and ground to fit in the grooves, then welded the angle bar to the top to get some leverage. Other than being flat vice round it was similar to what the service manual shows. But the nut was stuck and I didn't have the elbow grease to move it. So I welded the nut to the top so I could use an impact socket, which didn't help because the plate was not tight in the grooves of the nut. I tried a breaker bar but started to bend the plate. So I sandwiched a secon piece of plate to the first, welded the two together and re-ground the end to fit the slot much more tightly. This, after a lot of straining and beating, worked to loosen the nut.

[Desoto61]

Once the nut and outer bearing was free I punched out the pinion bearing races to get a bare casing. I then spent lots of time scraping, scrubbing, and finally a few hours in the blast cabinet to get the housing looking almost as good as new.

Next I treated it with some Eastwood After Blast which cleans and protects the metal till it can be painted. Once dry and clean I painted the interior with Glyptol, one because I figure it should help lubricant flow and seal any porosity in the casting, and two because I have a bunch left over from the quart I bought and it looks good and will further keep rust from forming till I re-assemble the unit.

I ordered the new ring and pinion gears, bearings, and lots of little parts which are slowly trickling in. In the mean time I'm still cleaning parts and will move onto the other 3rd member. Also need to take the front axle housing and some other large pieces to get blasted and primed.