Brake cylinder sleeving

[Matt Wilson]

I took apart the wheel cylinders on my truck yesterday ('49 B-1-PW) and found lots of corrosion. New cylinders range from $40 - $60 (or even higher at some places), but will eventually corrode again, so I decided to look into having the cylinders sleeved. I will probably not drive the truck more than once a week, sometimes less, I'm sure, so sleeving seems to be a good option to me. Also, I have heard many people talk about the poor quality replacement parts on the market these days. I figure I will just use what I have (purchased 10 years ago), but make them better. I want to minimize the maintenance for myself in the future, while enhancing safety.

A lot of people do brass, and it seems to work well for them, but to me it seems that stainless is nearly bullet-proof. I'm leaning toward that.

One company I spoke to installs stainless 304 by using Loctite in combination with a press fit. I have heard that the tight fit needed for stainless can sometimes crack the cast wheel or master cylinders, but the gentleman I spoke to says he has only had that happen once in the 10 years he's been in business. He says he's done around 2000 of them in that time, after taking over the business from his uncle, who did it for 15 years prior. The price is $70/wheel cylinder, rather inexpensive.

Another company I spoke to says they install stainless, but only with a slip fit in combination with bonding via Loctite. They say they've been doing them this way for decades with virtually no problems. Cost is $90/wheel cylinder, still pretty reasonable, but I wonder if the lack of interference fit would allow the sleeve to come out. They say they use the slip fit so that they get the minimum required thickness of bonding agent (Loctite) between the sleeve and the cylinder. Makes me wonder if the first company, which uses the press fit, is perhaps not getting the full benefit of the bond by squeezing out most of the adhesive during the press fit.

Both companies say they prefer stainless to brass because it is harder, so it doesn't wear, deform, or otherwise have problems that would be associated with softer materials. Both companies claim a very high success and reliability rate with their products.

Then there is the option of going with brass......

What are the thoughts, observations or experiences from the folks on this forum?


Thanks,

Matt

[maineSS]

I was researching the stainless vs brass question awhile back, and saw some negative comment about stainless- it tends to move out, and the type of stainless used is also important. Can't remember where I saw it- do a Google search. HTH.

[Charles Talbert]

We can supply new wheel cylinders for under $40. If interested, contact at the website below.

[Clint Dixon]

I took apart the wheel cylinders on my truck yesterday ('49 B-1-PW) and found lots of corrosion. New cylinders range from $40 - $60 (or even higher at some places), but will eventually corrode again, so I decided to look into having the cylinders sleeved. I will probably not drive the truck more than once a week, sometimes less, I'm sure, so sleeving seems to be a good option to me. Also, I have heard many people talk about the poor quality replacement parts on the market these days. I figure I will just use what I have (purchased 10 years ago), but make them better. I want to minimize the maintenance for myself in the future, while enhancing safety.

A lot of people do brass, and it seems to work well for them, but to me it seems that stainless is nearly bullet-proof. I'm leaning toward that.

One company I spoke to installs stainless 304 by using Loctite in combination with a press fit. I have heard that the tight fit needed for stainless can sometimes crack the cast wheel or master cylinders, but the gentleman I spoke to says he has only had that happen once in the 10 years he's been in business. He says he's done around 2000 of them in that time, after taking over the business from his uncle, who did it for 15 years prior. The price is $70/wheel cylinder, rather inexpensive.

Another company I spoke to says they install stainless, but only with a slip fit in combination with bonding via Loctite. They say they've been doing them this way for decades with virtually no problems. Cost is $90/wheel cylinder, still pretty reasonable, but I wonder if the lack of interference fit would allow the sleeve to come out. They say they use the slip fit so that they get the minimum required thickness of bonding agent (Loctite) between the sleeve and the cylinder. Makes me wonder if the first company, which uses the press fit, is perhaps not getting the full benefit of the bond by squeezing out most of the adhesive during the press fit.

Both companies say they prefer stainless to brass because it is harder, so it doesn't wear, deform, or otherwise have problems that would be associated with softer materials. Both companies claim a very high success and reliability rate with their products.

Then there is the option of going with brass......

What are the thoughts, observations or experiences from the folks on this forum?


Thanks,

Matt

I can't offer any comment on the benefits of using one of the two, stainless or brass, over the other, but I do know the kind of Loctite they use can make all the difference.

There are several grades of Loctite out there in the industry. They each require their own special cleaner and primer. I have done a lot of design work for the food packaging industry. Much of this involves formed and machined parts made from Stainless. The companies I have worked with are very specific in the prep and use of Loctite with the steps to follow and the part numbers called out right on the engineering prints. I can not tell you the benefits of one over the other as we specify what our customers ask for as they have been in the business for decades and have the gained the practical experience.

You may want to ask them what Loctite and primer they use, what special preparations they make to the I.D. of the casting and the O.D. of the sleeve, and why they use those particular products and procedures over others. If their answer is that the "blue" they buy at the local auto parts store is the cheapest they can find so that is what they use, you might want to shop/compare elsewhere.

It sounds like you have found two examples of two very different trains of thought. One machine shop I worked in ALWAYS used anti-seize when pressing two interference parts together. The other shop NEVER allowed any anti-seize on any parts being pressed together. Their explanations as to why they took their individual stands on the subject were quite lacking in my opinion.

[Charles Talbert]

Fellows much discussion can be made over this issue. We've tried it and quite honestly I haven't seen benefit from it to speak of. As long as quality wheel cylinders can be had for in the $35 price range; my opinion is that the cost of sleeving with whatever is of little to no benefit. The only time that sleeving is a real plus is when new cylinders are not available, then of course other avenues must be explored.

Sleeving does not do away with the issue of corrosion. Yes you can get around the rust issue with brass or stainless, but other types of corrosion are still there. No metal that I know of is totally exempt if there is metal to metal contact of dissimilar materials, especially if any moisture is introduced into the mix as it is with brake fluid and condensation.

We have made many gear box components from stainless with a great result, brake components however are simply a different animal. Some type of corrosion will always be an issue there, and really cancels the good in spending $$ trying to eliminate it. We've run trucks literally for years using the original type master cylinder and wheel cylinders along with dot 3 fluid without issue. My disc system with over the counter calipers has been on my truck for over 10 years; with dot 3 fluid, no issues at all to date.

[Matt Wilson]

Well, this is definitely food for thought.

Clint, I completely agree that prep of bonded surfaces is extremely important. I work in the helicopter industry and we deal with bonded surfaces of either metal or composite structure all the time. I could ask the two companies offering the cylinder sleeving service what they do/use, and bounce it off the metallurgists and chemists where I work and see what they think about it.

On the other hand.....Charles has a good point in saying that there probably is no such thing as a completely corrosion-free situation for brakes, since moisture and dissimilar metals will always be part of the equation, and inexpensive parts are readily available. We have a saying at work, which is that stainless steel "stains less" (i.e., corrodes less) but is not "stain-free" meaning it is not immune to corrosion.

I must say it is tempting to just go ahead and buy the inexpensive new-build wheel cylinders, but a part of me would rather spend the MONEY now to do things that will minimize the odds of spending TIME (and money) in the future. I would also rather minimize the odds of a leaky wheel cylinder ruining my brake shoes, which would cost me more money and time, and reduce my level of safety.

Charles, you mentioned getting 10 or more years out of stock parts. Are you talking about vehicles that were driven daily, or nearly daily, or did they typically sit for weeks or months at a time? Also, did you replace the brake fluid every year or so? Just wondering about the conditions. I, too, have gotten 10 or more years out of unmodified brake cylinders (on other vehicles). I must admit that the ones on my Power Wagon are close to 10 years old, but the amount of corrosion present still surprised and disturbed me when I disassembled them. I'm just looking into avenues to reduce the amount of maintenance and also increase safety (or at least my perception of safety), considering that this is a single circuit hydraulic system. I have also considered going the dual-circuit route, but that may be a topic for another day, unless you guys have any input you can throw in on that....

Thanks to both of you sirs! I really appreciate your comments, and I welcome any others you may have. Charles, I will definitely keep your offer for new wheel cylinders in mind. I've got some mental chewing to do for now.

[Charles Talbert]

We've had trucks in all types of situations as far as being driven regularly and sitting around a lot. Truthfully I can't say I've seen any real difference in how long brake components have lasted. The ones I'm thinking of have not had fluid changes, (system flushes). A good flush once in a while is fine, but then again I can't see a lot of benefit really, simply because bleeder valves are at the top of the circuit in wheel cylinders, calipers, and boosters to facilitate in air removal from the system. Flushing through these will not drain off any contaminate that settles out to the lower areas of the component which is where all damage if any will occur over time. So, all a flush will do is remove anything that is in suspension with the fluid at the time of the flush. The stuff that would be the cause of real damage stays right there in the system.

[Matt Wilson]

Thanks again, Charles. You bring up another very good point about the contaminants. Most of those will stay behind even with a good flush. Taking that thought a little further.... if the contaminants are abrasive, then they will score any metal surface, whether it is stainless or whatever.

MaineSS, thanks for your info, too. I meant to reply in my previous post but forgot (I was getting long-winded anyway). It's disturbing to think that some folks have had sleeves back out of their bores. Do you know who installed the sleeves in those instances?

Thanks....

[PWFFnut]

Stock parts & ocational of use

Well, this is definitely food for thought.

Clint, I completely agree that prep of bonded surfaces is extremely important. I work in the helicopter industry and we deal with bonded surfaces of either metal or composite structure all the time. I could ask the two companies offering the cylinder sleeving service what they do/use, and bounce it off the metallurgists and chemists where I work and see what they think about it.

On the other hand.....Charles has a good point in saying that there probably is no such thing as a completely corrosion-free situation for brakes, since moisture and dissimilar metals will always be part of the equation, and inexpensive parts are readily available. We have a saying at work, which is that stainless steel "stains less" (i.e., corrodes less) but is not "stain-free" meaning it is not immune to corrosion.

I must say it is tempting to just go ahead and buy the inexpensive new-build wheel cylinders, but a part of me would rather spend the MONEY now to do things that will minimize the odds of spending TIME (and money) in the future. I would also rather minimize the odds of a leaky wheel cylinder ruining my brake shoes, which would cost me more money and time, and reduce my level of safety.

Charles, you mentioned getting 10 or more years out of stock parts. Are you talking about vehicles that were driven daily, or nearly daily, or did they typically sit for weeks or months at a time? Also, did you replace the brake fluid every year or so? Just wondering about the conditions. I, too, have gotten 10 or more years out of unmodified brake cylinders (on other vehicles). I must admit that the ones on my Power Wagon are close to 10 years old, but the amount of corrosion present still surprised and disturbed me when I disassembled them. I'm just looking into avenues to reduce the amount of maintenance and also increase safety (or at least my perception of safety), considering that this is a single circuit hydraulic system. I have also considered going the dual-circuit route, but that may be a topic for another day, unless you guys have any input you can throw in on that....

Thanks to both of you sirs! I really appreciate your comments, and I welcome any others you may have. Charles, I will definitely keep your offer for new wheel cylinders in mind. I've got some mental chewing to do for now.

MY 1956 C3PW sometims sits for a lomg time inbetween when I drive it and the only thing I have had a problem with is the brake fuid goes some where not sure where but I fill it up blead the system and it works fine some times years most of time time out side in the rain. My dad & I had the master sleeved with bronze & reduced to 1 inch which gives more hydaric force on the shoes. We did this in the late 80s before We knew about in line boosters from VPW I was & still am happy with the improved stopping power P.S. We put in new wheel cylinders at the same time no problems yet.

[maineSS]

Stainless Issues...

Matt- Here's where I saw possible stainless problems www.brakecylinder.com/BrakeFAQ.htm#stainless , and www.brakecylinder.com/images/slipsleeve.jpg . Also, this from the Odds n' Ends area might be interesting www.brakecylinder.com/oddsandends.htm#65vette . Check around before sending your work out, and check the work carefully when you get it back.

[Matt Wilson]

Thanks, PWFFnut and SSMaine. Your comments are more good food for thought. I haven't had much time to think or do anything about this, as I have been taking care of year-end issues at work. Hopefully I'll get back to the truck before too long....

I'm also trying to squeeze in, whenever possible, some progress on insulating the attic above the garage, and the one remaining uninsulated wall of the garage. Gordon and others convinced me in another thread under "The Backroom" category to do this. I look forward to working on my truck in reasonable warmth this winter.

[Matt Wilson]

Well, folks, I decided to order a set of stock wheel cylinders from Mr. Talbert, rather than having my cylinders re-sleeved. Hopefully they will be here before Christmas so I can install them between Christmas and New Year's Day, while I'm off from work.

After talking to several companies and a few individuals, and reading a variety of posts on different websites, it seems that it is not uncommon for the brass sleeves to corrode eventually. However, I could not find ANY reports of the stainless sleeves corroding, even with some being in service for 30 years.

So I'm still intrigued by the stainless sleeving, but I could not overcome my concern over the sleeves walking out of their bores. Some of the installers I spoke to admitted that they had experienced this happening, although it was very rare, they said, and seemed to be the result of something the customer had done, such as exposing to high heat during powder coating, or clamping under excessive force in a vice, which caused the adhesive bond layer to fail.

Apparently the Corvette crowd has been having wheel cylinders, master cylinders and calipers re-sleeved with stainless for decades, and from what I can gather, there are tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of them out there like that, and some of these folks race their cars fairly hard on occasion. Still, if for some reason it does not work so well on Power Wagon stepped-bore wheel cylinders, I did not want to be the guy to find out the hard way.

Just thought I'd report back on my decision.

Someday, after I install a dual master cylinder, and/or if Power Wagon wheel cylinders become difficult to find, then I may revisit this idea. Like I say, it still intrigues me....

Thanks to everyone for all of the input.

[Matt Wilson]

Another question and more info....

One more thing I meant to mention is that one of the suppliers who will install either brass and stainless, depending on customer request, told me that while the stainless sleeves will last forever, they cause the rubber cups to wear somewhat faster than they would when operating against a cast iron or brass cylinder surface. Also, he said that brass corrodes about as fast as cast iron, which seems odd but if true, would indicate that brass sleeving is really just a restorative measure for situations when new cylinders can't be found, but not really an improvement over stock. On the other hand, it seems that stainless sleeving is considered an improvement to the cylinder in terms of corrosion prevention, but it may cause the rubber to wear faster.

On the other, other hand, when I asked another supplier (who only does stainless sleeving) about the stainless causing the rubber to wear faster, he said this was absolutely not true, and that the rubber cups will last just as long as they would with cast iron, and in fact will last longer because they will never come in contact with a pitted/corroded bore, which causes them to wear quickly.

My question is: Whether the surface is stainless, brass, cast iron or otherwise, aren't the cups pretty well lubricated by brake fluid? At least at the time of assembly, the parts are all supposed to get a good coating of brake fluid. I don't know how long this layer sticks around, and I suppose there can't be too much brake fluid present between the cups and bores in service, or else that means the cylinder is leaking? But if there is any "reasonable" amount of fluid present, then I would think the cups and other parts should not experience much if any additional wear, regardless of the material of the bore, so long as it is not pitted by corrosion. Any comments on this?

[NNICKB]

I just read over this thread and found it very interesting as I have dealt with persistent brake cylinder issues on one of my cars (not the Dodge).
It typically sat for a few months over the winter and then in the spring the brakes would sieze up and/or leak. I did try a set of new wheel cylinders, but they didn't last long. They may have been poor quality parts or it may be that there is just too much moisture in my building.

I have been considering sleeved components, but right now I have moved the car to a very dry garage, exercise the brakes regularly, and change the fluid in the spring. No problems yet.

One thing I tried that I do NOT recommend is DOT 5. Makes for a kind of unpredictable braking experience. I flushed the system thoroughly and went back to DOT 4.

[Gordon Maney]

One more thing I meant to mention is that one of the suppliers who will install either brass and stainless, depending on customer request, told me that while the stainless sleeves will last forever, they cause the rubber cups to wear somewhat faster than they would when operating against a cast iron or brass cylinder surface. Also, he said that brass corrodes about as fast as cast iron, which seems odd but if true, would indicate that brass sleeving is really just a restorative measure for situations when new cylinders can't be found, but not really an improvement over stock. On the other hand, it seems that stainless sleeving is considered an improvement to the cylinder in terms of corrosion prevention, but it may cause the rubber to wear faster.

On the other, other hand, when I asked another supplier (who only does stainless sleeving) about the stainless causing the rubber to wear faster, he said this was absolutely not true, and that the rubber cups will last just as long as they would with cast iron, and in fact will last longer because they will never come in contact with a pitted/corroded bore, which causes them to wear quickly.

My question is: Whether the surface is stainless, brass, cast iron or otherwise, aren't the cups pretty well lubricated by brake fluid? At least at the time of assembly, the parts are all supposed to get a good coating of brake fluid. I don't know how long this layer sticks around, and I suppose there can't be too much brake fluid present between the cups and bores in service, or else that means the cylinder is leaking? But if there is any "reasonable" amount of fluid present, then I would think the cups and other parts should not experience much if any additional wear, regardless of the material of the bore, so long as it is not pitted by corrosion. Any comments on this?

I can't help but think that if the stainless was harder on the cups it was because of the surface finish of the machined surface, rather than any material property.