Rear PTO...

[ColoradoWDX]

To quote Cheyenne Dave, I'm looking for the "holy grail" of Power Wagon hardware. Yes, I know some of you are probably rolling on the floor laughing at the new guy--that's okay. If anyone has parts for sale at a reasonable price, please let me know. Thanks in advance...

[Clint Dixon]

Here is one for sale over on Joe's Power Wagon page:

http://www.dodgepowerwagon.com/class...-082211-47.php

It even has a complete truck attached to it. If you want the truck, but don't want the cordwood saw, I can make you an offer on that.

[ColoradoWDX]

Clint,

Many thanks for answering as well as passing the link. I am aware of this vehicle which is located about 100 miles north of me in Denver. I tried to work a trade for my 1970 Corvette; however, the owner is interested only in outright sale. The best outcome for me regarding the rear PTO assembly is purchasing only the assembly itself. I have considered a few other options, but all involve substantial outlay of monies without a reasonable ROI. That said, I continue to be optimistic and hope my research efforts will pay off some day. Best regards...

Dave

[Matt Wilson]

Hopefully this is not too much of a thread high-jack - at least it's related to the original topic.

Has anyone ever tried to make their own rear PTO driveline by purchasing modern, off-the-shelf parts such as u-joints, couplings, adapters, etc., whatever would be required to do the job desired? Maybe some of the parts would need to be fabricated, but hopefully that would be limited to parts that are simple to make, such as hubs to fit onto shafts. Perhaps drive shafting out of a smaller vehicle, or just solid round bar-stock, could be used for the shafts. I realize the PTO itself would probably have to be an original unit, but it seems that the other parts might be purchased or fabricated without too terribly much effort. Of course, I say that without having looked into it at all. At least the horsepower and torque requirements are known, so that would serve as a known criteria for selecting catalog parts.

If someone were to do the leg work of piecing together the various components and perhaps fabricate, or tell someone else how to fabricate, the remaining parts, I would think quite a number of people would be interested in buying a kit to retrofit their Power Wagons.....if the price is not too far out of line.

Just wondering.....

[ColoradoWDX]

Matt,

After reading Clint's excellent primer on the subject, I decided to attempt what you suggest. Although there are many of the piece parts available as NOS, the limiting factors from my perspective are finding the correct center bearing bracket, associated cap and insulator. There are some other elusive small parts that don't seem to exist in NOS, but my guess is a suitable substitute could be identified if one had the original to compare with. The other huge show stopper I see even with my limited knowledge is the rear NP gearbox/pillow block assembly. Seems the comparable assembly made for Willys is available, but not for Dodge. I have toyed with the idea of reproducing the center bearing bracket and cap castings. Again and aside from the expense, you need serviceable, original parts to work from. All that said, if you're luck enough to have a working original rear PTO you have in a sense won the lottery. I continue to make calls to salvage yards across the country and even visit as many as I can find tucked away in the mountain towns here in Colorado. My wife thinks I'm nuts--maybe she's right!

[Clint Dixon]

Dave, it sounds like you have done some homework on the subject. If you have not already seen it, visit this link:

http://www.t137.com/ClintDixon/rearpto.htm

Phil Street was kind enough to post some rear PTO parts information for me on his t137 site.

I have seen some pretty good farmer created rear PTO setups on Power Wagons. One of the most famous was on the truck previously owned by Gene Buch of Fairfield, Iowa. It appeared at the VPW Rally for many years and now resides in Nebraska.

I see about one complete original setup sell per year. Most are advertised here, in the Power Wagon Advertiser Magazine, or over on Joe's Power Wagon page. They typically bring anywhere from $2,000 to $4,000 depending upon their condition and their level of being complete.

To reproduce one from scratch, using what off-the-shelf parts could be found, and assuming you would have to make all the gears, splined shafts, and cast housings - would cost probably 3 to 4 times that amount - assuming you had someone else do all the machine and casting work.

To make one that was not a 100% correct reproduction, but looked reasonably close with welded housings instead of cast, and worked like a original, would still probably cost more than finding an original.

I would suggest buying whatever parts you can find as you find them, even if the first one is only the short rear shaft, or the belt pulley for instance. Eventually you may be able to piece a complete setup together. About every other year or so at least some of the components show up at the VPW Rally on trailers or in the trunks of cars for sale. But they don't last long. You have to get there early and be right there with the money when people start setting up to sell their wares (if not stop them on their way into town). And never walk away to think about it first.......

I think Marty McKenzie looked into the logistics of having the belt pulley reproduced at one time. You may want to search him out for further input.

If you are armed with optimism, then you are one step in the right direction. It has taken me sometimes 20 years of determined unrelenting searching to find some of the things I have. Don't give up. It makes the final reward all that much greater.

[Matt Wilson]

Yeah, if a person has a complete setup, it is like winning the lotto. Unfortunately, I am not in that boat. Of course, I have not even tried searching for one, partly because I know they are so rare, and I don't have that much of a need. But "need" is not always the incentive, as we all know.

I agree the hardest thing to reproduce would probably be the 90-degree gearbox. However, I think not all of the attachments used this gearbox, so if one desires an implement that does not, then it would make the work easier.

If a 90-degree box is desired, there may be other ways to come up with one, other than cutting the gears, casting the housing, etc. Perhaps other equipment containing something similar enough can be found an adapted. Not sure off-hand what this would be, but I would think it would be out there.

Anyway, it's something that if I have time someday (yeah, right....), I would find it interesting to look into......right up there with looking into building or adapting my own engine governor.

[BigSmoke]

If a person could forget about "Having to be Original", a home made rear mounted PTO could be built for relatively cheap.

After all, . . . . it's a PTO and the basic idea of a PTO hasn't changed that much since it's invention.

There are thousands upon thousands of parts and choices.

[Matt Wilson]

If a person could forget about "Having to be Original", a home made rear mounted PTO could be built for relatively cheap.

After all, . . . . it's a PTO and the basic idea of a PTO hasn't changed that much since it's invention.

There are thousands upon thousands of parts and choices.

That was what I had in mind. I don't care too much if it's not original. I want most of the rest of the truck to be original, but it wouldn't bother me too much if this part of the truck is not. I would think modern catalog parts would be available to fill in for quite a few of the missing parts in such a drive line. Other parts would no doubt have to be scrounged from other applications, or would have to be fabricated.

[BigSmoke]

That was what I had in mind. I don't care too much if it's not original. I want most of the rest of the truck to be original, but it wouldn't bother me too much if this part of the truck is not. I would think modern catalog parts would be available to fill in for quite a few of the missing parts in such a drive line. Other parts would no doubt have to be scrounged from other applications, or would have to be fabricated.

Unless it's a PW buff, no one will ever know nor will they make the effort to look under the truck.

And if they do, they get what they deserve!

No doubt in my mind that you could fab up something 10 times better than the factory OE parts.

[Matt Wilson]

Unless it's a PW buff, no one will ever know nor will they make the effort to look under the truck.

And if they do, they get what they deserve!

No doubt in my mind that you could fab up something 10 times better than the factory OE parts.

Those are my thoughts, too. Hardly anyone else would know. I would know, but for this particular part of the truck, I wouldn't really care.

Another challenge for me in particular is that I managed to crack the housing of my PTO many years ago. I was rebuilding the unit and while driving the main shaft back into the cast iron housing, I cracked the housing. It split right out of the bore where the shaft goess. I felt (and still feel) really stupid. I should have been more careful, used lube, used a press instead of a hammer, etc. I'm usually very careful, but I really screwed up on this one. Hopefully I can get it welded by someone competent in cast iron welding. Otherwise, I suppose I could seal the crack with some sealent or epoxy, assuming the shaft will fit tightly enough in the housing, now that the bore has a crack in it. I doubt the housing would be loaded highly enough to worry about the crack growing.

[Gordon Maney]

I am thinking there is an early Ford tractor assembly much like the Dodge PTO that could be, or has been, adapted. Clint may have some comments here.

[Frank Irons]

I am thinking there is an early Ford tractor assembly much like the Dodge PTO that could be, or has been, adapted. Clint may have some comments here.

I believe the Power Wagon Advertiser had an article by Fred Coldwell on adapting the Ford tractor pto.

Frank

[BigSmoke]

Hopefully I can get it welded by someone competent in cast iron welding. Otherwise, I suppose I could seal the crack with some sealent or epoxy, assuming the shaft will fit tightly enough in the housing, now that the bore has a crack in it. I doubt the housing would be loaded highly enough to worry about the crack growing.

I'd use common sense on this.

I've never seen one grenade but I'm guessing it's possible.

Would hate to see the damage.

[Clint Dixon]

I am thinking there is an early Ford tractor assembly much like the Dodge PTO that could be, or has been, adapted. Clint may have some comments here.

If you have the Dodge pillow block, or plan to make one that is like the original in all respects from the frame crossmember back, you can adapt a belt pulley drive from an N-series Ford tractor. There is a catch however. Most of the Ford beltpulleys fit a splined shaft that measured 1-1/8 inches in diameter. The Dodge pillow block had a splined output shaft that measured 1-3/8 inches in diameter. No problem if you are making something from scratch, just make up a pillow block that has a 1-1/8 inch diameter 6B splined shaft.

If you have, or have made, a pillow block with a 1-3/8 inch diameter shaft, and you find a Ford belt pulley for a 1-1/8 shaft, then you will need a splined adaptor that converts DOWN in size. This will add at least 3-inches to the length of the shaft. To make up for this 3-inches, a housing extension will be needed between the pillow block and the belt pulley. Hub City used to make these and I have seen others that were used on some Ford Tractor applications.

If you are lucky, you might find a Ford belt pulley that fits a 1-3/8 diameter splined shaft. These however are rare and expensive and they are still not a direct bolt-up to the Dodge pillow block. The bolt pattern is correct, but the original pillow block and belt pulley used a locating extrusion on the block and a mating bore in the pulley housing so as to locate the two together and not place a side load on the shaft. To fit the ford 1-3/8 pulley to this, one needs to make an adaptor plate about 3/8 inch thick and let the bolts and spline locate the three together, machine off the extrusion on the stock Dodge pillow block, or machine a counter bore into the four feet at the base of the Ford Pulley housing.

I fully agree that one can make up a working rear PTO and belt pulley setup for a lot less than it would cost to find an original. But, there were ideas tossed around in above posts about creating a kit to sell to other enthusiasts. From my experience, to be successful, these would have to be dead nuts reproductions of the original pieces in order to sell to most enthusiasts. Just consider the grief that some of us have received over reproducing parts:

Dennis Sherman has created a lot of sheetmetal parts, but did not put holes in the parts. Better to leave it up to the owner as not all parts will fit every truck exactly the same. He caught a lot of flack about that as people thought the parts should have been perfect with no holes needed to be drilled.

Dan Shockley has created some near perfect reproductions of the Warn hubs. He has caught flack because he had them manufactured in the country where he was living and working - not in the U.S.

Matt Tisdale has created some real nice sheetmetal and people are dissappointed because he has not tackled some of the lessor called for parts.

I helped Vintage Power Wagons get some mechanical Power Wagon governors and Jeep capstan winch kits reproduced. It would been way WAY too expensive to create tooling for 20 governors and 16 winch kits, so everything was made by hand using NOS parts as guides where available and good used parts from my own trucks if needed. I have gotten grief from customers asking why we did not reproduce the clutch pulley on the governors. It would have doubled the cost to do so. As it was, about 2/3 of the governors had to be sold before a profit was realized. We could not afford to loose customers by increasing the cost that much.

I have also caught some grief from the Jeep folks because some of the parts did not fit their particular Jeep in a perfect way and was accused of creating inferior parts. NOS parts were used for pattern. Even if we had created tooling off of the NOS parts, the parts created from the tooling would not have been a 100% match to the original that the tooling was made to fit, and cost would have been much higher.

It gets to be real sticky business when creating "reprodutions" to sell.