While I have the head and manifolds off....

[Matt Wilson]

When you say Delta will spec my cam, you mean they will measure it and determine the lifts and durations? Then I would be able to tell whether it's closer to an "early" or "late" or other type of grind? Interesting....

[Charles Talbert]

Late cam spec

What Dodge (or Chrysler) calls the "LAPE" grind is the favored one if you are staying with a stock shaft. I have no idea how that may compare with the custom shaft you aquired from VPW. I don't understand why they would not have specific info on the products they offer. If I didn't know specifics and had not previously tested it in an engine that we could check out here, I wouldn't offer it for sale, but that's just me. We have done some custom grinds on hopped up engines that have worked extremely well, but not cheap by the time you consider all that is involved in a set up to achieve the full benefit. A better explanation is simply this; if you don't adress all that needs to be addressed in order to make any upgrade perform the best it can, not much use in doing it half way, you won't get the benefit you had hoped for.

[Matt Wilson]

I hear ya, Charles. I don't have much practical experience with performance parts, but I've been told they work much better when matched with other parts as a system. Maybe more than I knew at the time when I bought the camshaft. At that time, I was told it would make a significant increase in power at higher speeds (around 55 mph with 4.89 gears). It's hard for me to comment on whether or not it did make a big difference or not, since it had been several years between the last time I drove it with the old, tired engine, and the next time I drove it after rebuilding it, and plus I didn't spend much time at highway speeds with the old engine.

The camshaft is made by Isky, and I may have the part number and some specs, but I will have to look for them. I do know that I did not receive any hp or torque curves, and I think I would have asked. I may call and ask again. Perhaps in 10 years, they have gathered this information. I seem to recall VPW stating that this cam is an RV grind. It seems that the lack of performance data is not unique to VPW, though. Other folks I've contacted, who offer performance parts for these engines, do not have performance curves either. Even folks who seem to be highly regarded in the Mopar flathead 6 performance mods field, such as George Asche, do not have this type of info. He offers split exhaust and dual carb intakes, which sound intriguing to me, but I would certainly like to see on paper what kinds of gains (or losses) I could expect throughout the rpm range.

I'm not looking to get every last ounce of power out of the engine. I just want to give it some more pep, especially at highway speeds, without losing (actually hopefully gaining a little) on the lower end.

[Charles Talbert]

Check this gentleman out

Talk to Tom Langdon, my gut is he can likely offer more of the info you seek off the top of his head than most. His # is: 586-739-9601.

We have used some stuff that he offers with great results. He talks about a 40 HP gain if his entire system is used I believe. Don't take this to the bank, but I think if I'm recalling correctly he specifically recommended against using a cam grind designed for an RV; he can verify that though, my memory ain't like it once was. This is a guy who has spent much time and effort upgrading the straight 6 gasser; kind of like we have worked with the diesel upgrades.

Feel free to give me a call also if you like, 704-474-4683; I can share a few issues with you also, and I'm at the shop by myself today doing some small component builds. The rest of my crew is off today for the New Year holiday.

[maineSS]

Yes, Delta will run your cam on the Performance Trends cam measuring equipment, and determine all of its specs. I then took this info from several cams along with other 230 engine data, and had Roadrunner Engineering run engine simulations using Performance Trends software that has been tweaked for flatheads (They do a lot with Ford engines), and that's where the "late" model cam proved best. The results are posted here somewhere, search for http://www.powerwagonadvertiser.com/...camshaft=specs .

I have one of George Asche's cams, had it spec'd and simulated, it made good tq/hp in the mid 2k- 4k, slightly above what the PW needs for decent fuel economy. I think a custom grind will be needed for for tq/hp in the low end-2000 rpm range, and the specs will have to depend on intake/exhaust flow in that range. Our needs will be very different from the classic flathead speed buildups, so we won't be able to use a lot of the "off the shelf" stuff.

The best head for the 230 is the 1958-59 version, it has 8:1 compression with a shorter, deeper transfer section, and better flow around the valves. The problem with flatheads is that mods to increase compression cut flow, and mods that increase flow kill compression. Getting flow and compression require different head design, which is why the '58 version is worth looking for- I got mine from George, don't know if he has any more. I've posted the casting # here, http://www.powerwagonadvertiser.com/...t=head=casting .

I did a lot of looking around (still am) at flathead valve shapes & seat angles, the consensus seems to favor "nailhead" valves over tulip types, the seat angle question seems to revolve around 30 deg vs 45 deg angles for the valve. I think 45 will give better sealing based on Vizard's work with thermal distortion of intake valve seats by proximity of the hotter exhaust valve seat- he had to cut a "conformation groove" on 30 deg valves to allow them to deform slightly to seal. This is OK on race engines that get opened up and checked frequently, not so good for 100,000 mile use...

[Gordon Maney]

This is a great thread and has prompted my editorial that will appear in the February 2012 issue.

[Matt Wilson]

This is a great thread and has prompted my editorial that will appear in the February 2012 issue.

Glad to hear it. I will follow up as I get things back together.

[Matt Wilson]

Lifter/Tappet Bores

Ok, so the plot thickens....

While I am in there, I checked the lifter (tappet) bore clearances using a dial indicator (per the engine manual instructions), and found that most are between 0.0025" - 0.004". This is way beyond the 0.0000 - 0.001" called for in my manual, even surpassing the wear limit of 0.0015".

So....questions:

1) Since I am halfway there, should I go ahead and replace the tappets with oversized ones? Vintage Power Wagons says they have 0.008" oversize tappets. I know one side effect of loose tappets is low oil pressure, but the oil pressure seems to be pretty decent, even with these loose tappets in place. As best I recall from the last time I ran the engine over 4 years ago, the pressure is usually over 25 psi, even when the engine is warmed up and idling, and it gets up to 40 - 45 psi at higher rpm. However, I am concerned that the tappets and bores will wear faster with these clearances. And also, over time, as the crank and cam bearings wear, the oil pressure may drop sooner than it normally would.

2) If I replace the tappets, I will need to ream out the current bores. My engine manual calls for the use of a hand reamer (probably stepped or piloted reamer) to enlarge the bores, but I don't know where to find one of these of the correct size these days. It was probably a pretty specialized tool that has long since become unavailable, I would imagine. Does anyone have any leads on these? Or any other method for getting the proper size bore to fit the oversize tappets? Other than removing the engine and taking it to a machine shop....

On a related note, the engine has a high-performance camshaft and springs installed, as I mentioned in an earlier post to this thread. I think these would place more demand on the tappets and their bores.

I would appreciate any comments and especially a lead on an appropriate reamer.

Thanks!

[Charles Talbert]

You better be careful

Loose valve tappets has nothing what so ever to do with oil pressure, they are not pressure lubricated.

With this much wear, the tappets will flop over before they push upward; wear will get faster and faster as a result. They will begin to knock as the condition grows worse, and will sound like a rod bearing knocking.

You can certainly ream the bores by hand, however there is no really good precision way to do that using a hand reamer. Since the bores are no doubt out of round now, it will be virtually impossible to get a good hole by hand. If I were you, I'd bite the bullet at this point, pull it out, strip it and send it to a reputable machinist that has equipment and know how to perform this for you in a precise fashion. You will likely be disappointed with anything less, and could very easily ruin the block for good.

[Matt Wilson]

Good point on the oil pressure, Charles. Not sure why it didn't occur to me that the lifters are not pressure lubricated on this engine.

As for pulling the engine......oh, boy. Definitely food for thought. As usual, you are probably right. At the time I rebuilt the engine, I had discovered the loose tappet-to-bore clearances but I don't think I was able find oversize lifters, and I consulted a few machine shops and told them of my situation, and they all said they didn't think it would be a problem. But now that I'm this far into the engine, I'd like to make it right since I can find the oversize tappets. If I go ahead and pull the engine, it would be the opportunity to re-work the valve seats the correct way instead of lapping as I had planned.

However, I have to think that the hand reamer, being recommended in the manual, has some merit. Next, I will probably pull the cam and lifters to check the roundness of the bores.

Thanks.

[Matt Wilson]

The tappet-to-block clearance stated in my manual makes me wonder. The manual is Army TM 9-1840A/TO 19-75B-15, "Ordnance Maintenance Engine and Clutch" published in 1952. The manual states that clearance for new parts should be 0.0000 - 0.001" with a wear limit of 0.0015". Why would they state that 0.0000" as the lower limit? It would seem to be a bad idea for anyone to set up their tappets with no clearance. Maybe it has to do with the manual's recommended method of measurement (dial indicator)?

Based on a pretty extensive internet search, it seems that for more "modern" engines (including sixes and V8's back to the 1960's), anything less than 0.001" is asking for trouble. The desired clearance for a variety of engines seems to be between 0.001" and 0.0025", depending on who you ask, and depending on whether flat tappets or roller lifters are used. Mind you, this is for lifters with diameters around 0.8" - 0.9", whereas the 230 flathead six tappets are smaller at approx. 0.624" in diameter.

Does anyone have a different manual for this engine with specs for this clearance, and if so, could you post what your manual states?

[Charles Talbert]

My assessment of your question is this; all military manuals have a wealth of valuable info in them and are typically much more detailed than run of the mill manuals; BUT, they also contain many short comings in common sense judgement. Why I don't know, but in many cases these short comings never got addressed.

The simple truth is you can't put a .624" tappet through a .624" bore, it simply will not go. The bore will have to be at least .625" or slightly more for the tappet to be inserted without the use of force. A .624" tappet in a .625" bore will be very close to a .000" measured fit. This being said, the .0015" tolerance spec as a max clearance measurement is not at all out of line. The point you need to bear in mind is simple, you want the tappet to operate STRAIGHT up and down freely without binding when it reaches normal operating temp. If you initially set the clearance so loose, tappet travel path will not be straight on, but will have some side wise sloop from the get go, and that will accelerate faster than normal wear. You don't want that in play, especially with a new set up. The higher end oils of today will allow for much better lubrication in a tighter tolerance set up, so you are able to do a somewhat tighter initial set up than would have been considered tolerable some years ago when oils didn't offer the lube characteristics they do today. Cheap oil is no better than a 30 year old product, the higher end products are worth the cost difference, even though that cost difference is significant when buying products that are considered the best. Tappet lubrication is from a cavity that is cast into the block with an oil hole from the cavity into tappet bore. The cavities stay filled with oil via splash from the engine internals, thus oil is present to flow through the holes into the bores at all times supplying constant gravity flow lubrication to the tappets. Today's better grade oils will flow freely through tighter tolerances enabling a better, longer lasting set up in these older engines than has been previously possible before.

We pay attention to all of these issues in our builds, that is why our rebuilt engines are without a doubt better than new, and why we specify certain high end oils must be used in order to keep the warranty in force throughout the given time period.

Many considerations should be thought out completely. This is why the claims of aftermarket cams and such really do not impress me much unless there are facts to back up the seller's claims. Somebody telling me that they have a high performance component that does this or that, but really don't offer any information or facts to substantiate their claim, well that just doesn't get my attention at all.

This is also why I say do your homework before choosing a rebuilder to work on your engine. Find out exactly what you can expect from $$$ invested. A cheap price quote doesn't put any consideration toward some real issues that can and will produce a much better longer lasting engine. You will get what you pay for!! The fact is you will have right at $2,000 invested in parts these days if you do a 230 right including all the accessory components. Then there is the machining labor and top quality workmanship reassembly of the long block and rebuilds of all the accessory stuff. When you hear people talking about they farmed their's out for a rebuild at $2,000 or 2,500, while some boast of even lesser cost; they don't realize it, but a common sense analysis of that statement is they are really telling you that a whole host of stuff was not touched, and how bad they got screwed. For most, by the time they realize what this real deal they thought they got really was, it's too late, and the issue in most cases must be revisited.

[Matt Wilson]

Great info, Charles, as usual.

So I think what you are saying is that it may be ok for the tappet-to-bore clearances for this engine to be 0.001" or even a little less, given today's oils - and apparently Chrysler thought it to be the case for the oils back then, too. I did some re-looking in my old manuals, and found that I had overlooked one of my WWII manuals that stated the clearance should be 0.0000 - 0.0007" for new parts, so tighter than the other manual. However, wear limit is stated as 0.0025", so it's quite a bit larger than the spec from the other manual. Another person provided that his late '50's manual indicates a wear limit of 0.002". All of these manuals call for the use of a hand reamer if wear beyond these limits is discovered. In any case, several of my tappets appear to be well beyond these specs.

All of the manuals that call for reaming the tappet bore call for the use of a reamer with a stem that apparently is run through the valve guide in order to keep it properly aligned with the tappet bore. This, combined with a pilot on the other end of the reamer, would give me more confidence in the final outcome of the reaming operation. I've checked around with a few shops, and so far, no one seems to be able to (or maybe want to) do this tappet bore job. I will keep calling.

And, yes, I intend to use good oil. I would prefer to use synthetic. The engine has 7 - 8,000 miles on it, so it should be nicely broken in by now and ready for synthetic. My only concern with synthetic is whether or not it will have a tendency to leak more than with conventional oil. I always try to install gaskets and seals properly, using wear sleeves, good brand-name sealant, well-cleaned gasket surfaces, name-brand NEW gaskets and seals, etc., but usually it seems that I still end up with a minor seep here or there. Very frustrating.

And, yes, the cam situation - who knows. My point was simply that IF my cam has higher lift, it could further accelerate the tappet/bore wear.

[Charles Talbert]

Synthetic oils don't have to leak. I know that popular opinion among many PW owners is that everything that has oil or grease in it is supposed to drip. I know better; the same is true with the engine. All our rebuilds get an initial fill of Royal Purple break-in oil. They don't leak when we run them on the stand. Yes it is more expensive to build these engines in such a way as to stop the usual leaks and seeps, but it is certainly doable. Just requires the use of the best stuff and incorporating carefully done quality workmanship into the build. Running the best quality oils also plays a part in no leaks. It starts off with gaskets and seals being installed correctly using the best sealants, the best quality oils are blended with strong additive packages that encourage seal pliability, and prevent shrinkage. Building it right, and using the best products will eliminate the drips.

Another big deal with seepage elimination in our engines is that they are rotationally balanced along with the rod assemblies being balanced on gram scales. This greatly reduces vibrations throughout the entire RPM range. Keeping vibration frequencies at bay will greatly affect the possibility of seeps showing up later on after the build is complete.

[53Crusher]

Tappet Reamer C-265

Matt- I am in similar situation as you. In the middle of complete engine build and can't seem to find any tappets other than the oversize ones from Vintage. Hope to install NOS tappets with same size if I can find any. Anyway, I found a picture and description of the reamer tool. Might help you locate one.