230 engine rebuild or not

[sleddrg]

I have a 1960 wm 300 pw with the 230 motor with 60k miles plus or minus 10k. It was an air force or army truck and I guess oil filters were optional back then which is funny because my '46 B-1 "parts truck" has one.

When I bought the truck it ran enough to get it on and off trailer but was told if it sat for too long a valve would stick and you could hear a miss. The old owner had explained it had happened before when the truck was fully operational which was 10 years ago plus or minus 3 years : ). He had popped off the head and freed up the "sticky valve" to get truck running so he could sell it and it seemed to run "ok" despite having a milk jug with gas can tied to the top of cab with some kind of rubber line connected to carb so fuel would gravity feed fuel to it.

After getting it home in one piece, changing oil, getting running long enough to warm up with garden hose in radiator to keep water going in faster than it was leaking out of a rusted out freeze plug and some home made rubber thermostat housing gasket it started to run really pretty good despite the " modified stock carb" thank god for the manual throttle cable.

So now things are removed for unimpaired access to engine now ( front fenders, radiator and grill housing, hood,and engine accessories intake/ exhaust manifold. I took the oil pan off to clean and paint and was over joyed to find a 1/4" of sludge that had to be scraped out because solvent just bounced off.

I removed the head and clean it up the cylinders are smooth (no visible cross hatching) or ridge at top of cylinder but a couple cylinders have smooth vertical wear marks not deep gouges but you can feel them. Regretfully I didn't get a compression check before I started.

My goal for the truck is to bring it back to its original glory, a reliable hard core work truck that can haul a crap load of fire wood, hay, dogs oh and wife and kids and pull a loaded horse trailer all at the same time, and that looks pretty good. Any ideas would be great!

[NNICKB]

Rebuilds ain't cheap these days.

I'd put it back together, run it for awhile, and then check the compression. If it is low, squirt some oil in the cylinders and check it again. If it comes up, you need rings. If it stays low in some or all of the cylinders, you need valves.

My Dodge had fallen into disuse before I got it. The engine was stuck solid. I squirted some Liquid Wrench in the cylinders, left it sit for a week, and it turned over. Never took the head off. Put the spark plugs back in and she started right up.

The truck gave me many years of good service after that, ran strong and smooth, and never used a drop of oil between changes.

[sleddrg]

thanks for input

Should I try and flush the oil system with solvent or ATF or just fill it full of 30 weight oil spin the oil pump then let it rip? Any ideas on oil filter set up?

[Gordon Maney]

I think you indicate you have changed oil once already. While you are still evaluating how to proceed, I don't think it is necessary to flush or change again for now.

You could find the necessary parts to fit the engine with a partial flow filter again.

Others will comment on the filtering aspect.

[Charles Talbert]

Marks in the cylinders??

Built lots of 230 engines. If you saw a vertical line in the cylinders as you mentioned, the only sensible thing to do is stop right in your tracks and tear it down for a complete rebuild. Anytime you see vertial marks, especially if you can feel them as you stated, it is most likely from broken rings. May be it has not gone too far already to live again if you are fortunate; but if you keep on keeping on, you may as well go ahead and trash it now. Just past experience speaking, good luck.

[gmharris]

Since you have the pan and head off and there is no cylinder ridge, maybe, you can undo the connecting rod cap and push the piston out of one of the damaged cylinders to see what's going on.

I'm with Charles though, if you have vertical wear you can feel, there's no way that cylinder can be sealing well. Engines will sometimes run surprisingly well with low compression in one or two cylinders.

It would be a shame to put much effort into the rest of the truck without addressing the engine problem and then have the engine self-destruct. That's really discouraging.

Sixty or 70,000 miles over 60 plus years is not bad life for an engine without an oil filter designed in the 30's, or whenever these engines were designed.

[Charles Talbert]

another possibility

It is also possible that a piston pin could have lost its retainer and has drifted over making a vertical mark on the cylinder wall; if that were to be the case, it's really bad news left unchecked.

All M37's had a bypass type military junior oil filter originally. Apparently that was just removed at some point from yours.

[sleddrg]

need to cowboy up

You guys are probably right. When a you start adding up all the different clues to engine life expectancy milage, lack of oil filtration during life, questionable valve springs, smooth cylinders with some damage I just need to suck it up and tear into it. I already have the whole front end off the truck and a new gasket kit in a box. Are rebuild engine kits still pretty easy to get or do you have to go to a speciality place like VPW? What other things, other than cracks bring a 230 engine block to the grave where it can't be saved? I would assume you could just bore the engine alittle and get over sized pistons and call it good.

[Charles Talbert]

You guys are probably right. When a you start adding up all the different clues to engine life expectancy milage, lack of oil filtration during life, questionable valve springs, smooth cylinders with some damage I just need to suck it up and tear into it. I already have the whole front end off the truck and a new gasket kit in a box. Are rebuild engine kits still pretty easy to get or do you have to go to a speciality place like VPW? What other things, other than cracks bring a 230 engine block to the grave where it can't be saved? I would assume you could just bore the engine alittle and get over sized pistons and call it good.

To approach anything with the outlook of doing as little as possible and "calling it good" just is not a wise move. I hate to see anyone learn that lesson the hard way.

My honest opinion is that you need to have a detailed discussion with a rebuilder who has experience with the 230 engines. The mindset of considering a re-ring job and little more usually ends in great disappointment.

[gmharris]

Now's the time to take off the rose colored glasses and determine whether the truck is worth fixing.

If you need an engine overhaul, brakes, tires, rust repair and don't have a bed, tailgate, rear fenders, you are probably better of looking for another truck. A better truck will probably cost less in the long run.

Check Rock Auto. I didn't see a complete engine kit, but they seem to have everything you will need for a rebuild. Their prices and service are good too.

There's a reason these trucks have been sitting for years. Someone has already made the assessment they are not worth fixing. Luckily, there are optimist like us who think differently.

[sleddrg]

lessons

Yes I agree doing as little as possible and calling it "good enough" is not always wise and it usually comes back to bite you, but there is something to be said to getting things up and running and then working the bugs out later. My underlying fear is that it is going to turn into the never ending project. My first car was a 1966 cj5 tuxedo park mark 5 with a Buick 225 v6. It was along way from it's original tuxedo glory and I did a ground up rebuild. I learned alot and it was the start of my passion for old 4x4 trucks and jeeps but looking back I spent way more time working on it than I ever did enjoying it and after it was completely done I drove a month and had to sell it to go off to college and someone else enjoyed all my hard labor. That is why I posted the question on the engine rebuild because I wanted to know what peoples experience was with the engine and how much I could maybe get away with. In my experience, these trucks they are kind of a holy grail of old 4x4 trucks. In my 40 + years life time I can count on one hand how many of these FFPW I have seen and the only one I have ever sat in and drove on and off a trailer to get it home and to the DMV is the one I have now. So I'm going to roll up sleeves keep my head down and keep going. If it all goes down hill I will switch gears and look at engine conversions but I would like to see what the old flat head can do. Thanks for all the input it is greatly appreciated.

[Charles Talbert]

I'll say this, then leave it with you

The flat heads can be built into a very good engine, that is already an established fact. I think in all my years of doing this, the ones I've seen become the most dicouraged are the ones who thought they could cut corners and go back later for all the finery. The point I'm making is that most times, going that route on an engine just doesn't work. You have to keep opening up things over and over which is in itself extremely discouraging long before it's over. By the time the folks who start out using that approach accept the fact that they should have listened to common sense and built it right the first time; they are already over the cliff with it. Prices keep going up every day, it will only cost more next month or next year, and that's if parts remain available. If one is on the verge of "can I afford this", that's a big question. I came to the realization years ago that I can't afford many desires I've had. For me I would rather look in a direction of something I can afford to see through instead of looking for every corner I can cut knowing all the while what the likely outcome will be. Some things can be approached with a mindset of doing a little along as funds allow, while others do not work well with that approach. For example body work can be done in sections over a long time span and eventually get there. Half way building an engine as cheap as possible, knowing numerous return trips into it are inevitable, not so much. Certain items will be to purchase again and again, gasket kits, many of which are not available except in the overhaul kit at $130 or so a pop is a good example of that.

Rebuild parts can usually be purchased at the best price from an engine machine shop. They generally have better access and can buy quality parts for less than you can purchase from any local parts retailer.

Food for thought; wish you the best with it.

[sleddrg]

thanks

Thanks again for your words of wisdom.