230 engine removal

[sleddrg]

Taking the engine out of a 60 FFPW, Can you remove engine and transmission as an assembly by removing transmission shift tower then slipping it out the front or will the weight of trans cause it to go all crazy? Front end is all removed engine head is off. Would it be better to pop bolts for the cab remove steering wheel and lift cab off frame then pull engine? How much does a cab with doors weigh? Book says to disconnect drive shaft and separate trans from engine then pull engine but I'm not quite sure best way to support trans so I can push truck out of the way, going to use a stationary chain hoist.

[JStinson]

I'm not an FFPW guy so I'm not sure, but if it's anything like an M37, you'll want to remove the engine and transmission as a unit. If you don't, there's nothing substantial on the truck supporting the transmission. Also, it's easier that way.

[Clint Dixon]

Taking the engine out of a 60 FFPW, Can you remove engine and transmission as an assembly by removing transmission shift tower then slipping it out the front or will the weight of trans cause it to go all crazy? Front end is all removed engine head is off. Would it be better to pop bolts for the cab remove steering wheel and lift cab off frame then pull engine? How much does a cab with doors weigh? Book says to disconnect drive shaft and separate trans from engine then pull engine but I'm not quite sure best way to support trans so I can push truck out of the way, going to use a stationary chain hoist.

The best way is to first remove the transmission and set it aside. Then, remove the engine. The cab and steering will not have to be loosened or moved.

You have to remove both floor pans and the center hump anyway, in order to remove the shift tower from the transmission. In doing so, you are half way there. Next steps are to remove the jack shaft between the trans and transfer case, remove the transfercase control levers, and remove the cluth and brake pedals.

In my younger years I was able to sit on the cab floor (with seat removed) astraddle the transmission, with my head under the dash, and work the transmission back and lower to the ground by hand. Now, I crawl under the truck and lower the transmission with a floor jack. Either way, it is so much less work removing the transmission first rather than trying to remove the engine and transmission as an assembly. All of the rest of the componants I mention need to be removed anyway, seperating the trans from the engine is just one more easy step in the process.

[sleddrg]

thanks

Thanks, I was just looking at that weird looking bell housing and that transmission hanging out there I thought I should throw the question out there so I don't have an oh s*#! moment. Now I just got to find the time.

[wayneh]

In my younger years I was able to sit on the cab floor (with seat removed) astraddle the transmission, with my head under the dash, and work the transmission back and lower to the ground by hand..

Clint: I hear you... I thought the same thing, I did this by hand and bench pressed transmissions in when I was in my 20's... Now 30 years later I bought a transmission jack from HF. Of course I spent an hour making it better...

and you know what else I learned? The transfer case weighs more than the transmission!

Wayne

[Charles Talbert]

I don't get this one

We pull these often around here, we always pull the engine and trans as a unit. Why on earth wrestle with pulling a trans from underneath, even with a good jack when it is a piece of cake to remove it after the engine/trans assy is sitting off the frame and on an engine pallet. You guy's are losing me with the advice you offer.

[Clint Dixon]

We pull these often around here, we always pull the engine and trans as a unit. Why on earth wrestle with pulling a trans from underneath, even with a good jack when it is a piece of cake to remove it after the engine/trans assy is sitting off the frame and on an engine pallet. You guy's are losing me with the advice you offer.

Several reasons. Most of which apply more to the do-it-yourselfer and not necessarily to a fully equipped shop.

- The engine without the transmission attached is much lighter and better balanced.

- Without the transmission attached, the engine does not have to be moved so far ahead before it can be lifted from the frame rails.

- You have to remove so much anyway to remove the engine and trans as a unit, it is not all that much more work to go the extra step and remove the transmission while under there.

- A good transmission jack is easy to use. A floor jack is not all that much harder to use. The old hand method with your head under the dash is easy if you are a young guy.

- Guiding the entire assembly back in with the transmission attached in much worse than just guiding the engine and bellhousing into position. Less chance of boogering up a paint job or catching on something that you don't want to catch on and ruin.

- The method I described can be accomplished with a simple chain hoist and a nice big branch in an old oak tree. No need for an A-frame and hoist or a fancy engine hoist. Slddrg did mention that he will have to push the truck out from under the engine. I don't think he would want to push the truck out from under an engine and transmission combination while trying to guide the whole assembly like threading a needle.

[Charles Talbert]

I'm almost 60 years old, and all about the easiest way

Clint, as you well know we do lots of high end builds here, most with high end paint jobs that cost thousands. The single most important thing we don't want to do is bung up paint during reassembly. What I've basically described in the easiest method with the least likelyhood of screwing up along those lines.

If you do it different, more power to you, to each his own, etc; however it is absolutely useless for you to try and tell me that a tried and proven better method doesn't work well. I guess we have tried it every way under the rainbow over many years, I know what the easiest way is when all is considered, and like I said, I'm all about the easiest way.

[Clint Dixon]

Clint, as you well know we do lots of high end builds here, most with high end paint jobs that cost thousands. The single most important thing we don't want to do is bung up paint during reassembly. What I've basically described in the easiest method with the least likelyhood of screwing up along those lines.

If you do it different, more power to you, to each his own, etc; however it is absolutely useless for you to try and tell me that a tried and proven better method doesn't work well. I guess we have tried it every way under the rainbow over many years, I know what the easiest way is when all is considered, and like I said, I'm all about the easiest way.

I was not trying to tell YOU or your employees how to do it. I was trying to give Slddrg some advice, based upon my own personal experience, in answer to his question.

The Shop Manual says to remove the transmission first. If you have followed my answers here and over on Joe's page, you know that I am not one of the guys who adheres strictly to the book. As I explain to the new Engineers I train at work, just because this is the best way I have found which works for ME doesn't mean that they will not find a better way that works for THEM.

I guess it was about 1982, and I was a young guy, and I thought there had to be a better way than the way the Shop Manual described. I tried it the way you describe and I soon found out that I was going to damage something or someone, and that someone was going to be me as I seldom have anyone else around to help work on Power Wagons. Back then, I did not have all the necessary tools and equipment - probably still don't as I do not do this for a living. I doubt that Slddrg is planning to do it for a living either. So after the failed attempt back in '82, it was "back to the book" and I have been happy with the described method ever since.

So, though it works for me, I am apparently wrong in giving this advice when asked from others and I thank you for pointing out my mistake. This is not the first time I have given bad advice and you have had to correct me. Again, thanks for covering my back.

Since you don't seem to frequent Joe's site, how about I stick to the company over there, you can stay here, and we will not be stepping on each others toes any longer?

Truce?

[Charles Talbert]

I don't figure you stepped on my toes, nor did I intend to step on yours.

When I was in the grading business, I'd tell an operator to do a certain task. Sometimes they would ask how I wanted them to go about it. If the guy was an experienced operator, my most common answer was any way you want too as long as we reach the same conclusion.

Your way works for you, my way works for me. Although we are a fairly well equipped shop, still we discover certain tools we don't have that would make a given job go better. With engine pulling, I'd say probably the only tool we have that you may not is an engine balancer. This is a very inexpensive tool, around $50 will buy a good one. It simply attaches on the hoist hook at a single point, and to the engine at 2 points. Once the engine is in suspension, you simply rotate a crank that moves the attaching point forward or back which tilts the engine front to rear. This easily lowers the transmission for firewall clearance, while raising the front of the engine to clear a winch, oil pan over the cross member, or whatever obstruction. Simply turning the crank to tilt appropriately and raising or lowering the hoist while rolling the chassis back makes it quick and easy. The reasonable cost of the balancing device is well worth it, even if you just use it once in a while. It also works well for other lifting task, as we use it quite frequently. Works superb for transmission alignment and attachment with the engine on a stand or engine pallet, with our chain hoist on a gear driven trolley it absolutely makes the job completely effortless, because shaft alignment can be done absolutely precise. Nothing we use in this rig is high $$ exotic tooling, just common stuff that can be had reasonable, really reasonable stuff is out there that is intended only for occassional use.

This is my mindset with this situation. You offered how you do it, I offered our method that I feel is easier. Anything that can be done standing up instead of laying on a creeper is a plus in my book. Maybe I should have taken the time to explain about the balancer in the original explanation. I guess it shouldn't even matter, but this is just me.

Please accept my apology, I never meant to offend you in any way. Back to the grading days, almost everything was done in the field then using any method we could. That experience over years makes me look at doing things now in a different light from most.

I do go to Joe's sight once in a while, actually I don't spend much time on any of the sights anymore, just not enough time. About all I spend now is a little on weekends if I'm not tied up with other things.

[gmharris]

Clint: I hear you... I thought the same thing, I did this by hand and bench pressed transmissions in when I was in my 20's... Now 30 years later I bought a transmission jack from HF. Of course I spent an hour making it better...

and you know what else I learned? The transfer case weighs more than the transmission!

Wayne

I put a HF furniture dolly under the jack so that is moves side-to-side easier. I welded up an angle iron rectangle that the jack sits in. It makes it more stable on the furniture dolly.

[gmharris]

I put a HF furniture dolly under the jack so that is moves side-to-side easier. I welded up an angle iron rectangle that the jack sits in. It makes it more stable on the furniture dolly.

I meant that furniture dolly suggestion for use if you are using a regular floor jack (and, maybe, an adapter). A transmission jack will, of course, have the swivel wheels already. The furniture dollies are cheap on sale at HF.

[wayneh]

GM:

Yea, I had to break down and buy a transmission jack. I hate buying H Freight tools, but this works ok in the four times I have used it. (in/out for trans and transfer)

When I finish my NP420 I'll use it a few more times! Being way past 50 years old and for the most part working alone, I have to work smarter with and use mechanical advantage more than my muscle now!! At least for this I can manage it by myself.

Now I will admit though to modifying he HF jack before I got it... just to tighten up the tilt controls. I also looked at rigging my floor jack, but I've already got enough smashed fingers to do that...

Thanks to Charles Talbert for clueing me in on where to buy the C clips for the 420. I'll put a post up on that in a bit.

Wayne

[Cheyenne Dave]

I was not trying to tell YOU or your employees how to do it. I was trying to give Slddrg some advice, based upon my own personal experience, in answer to his question.

The Shop Manual says to remove the transmission first. If you have followed my answers here and over on Joe's page, you know that I am not one of the guys who adheres strictly to the book. As I explain to the new Engineers I train at work, just because this is the best way I have found which works for ME doesn't mean that they will not find a better way that works for THEM.

I guess it was about 1982, and I was a young guy, and I thought there had to be a better way than the way the Shop Manual described. I tried it the way you describe and I soon found out that I was going to damage something or someone, and that someone was going to be me as I seldom have anyone else around to help work on Power Wagons. Back then, I did not have all the necessary tools and equipment - probably still don't as I do not do this for a living. I doubt that Slddrg is planning to do it for a living either. So after the failed attempt back in '82, it was "back to the book" and I have been happy with the described method ever since.

So, though it works for me, I am apparently wrong in giving this advice when asked from others and I thank you for pointing out my mistake. This is not the first time I have given bad advice and you have had to correct me. Again, thanks for covering my back.

Since you don't seem to frequent Joe's site, how about I stick to the company over there, you can stay here, and we will not be stepping on each others toes any longer?

Truce?

Clint, it is time for me to say a few words here...

Don't you go anywhere!

Since Gordon made me a moderator in 2007, my chores around here have been basically to see that postings make it into their proper categories…pretty boring stuff. It is mostly a friendly site that needs very little police work.

I have known you for close to 25 years now (didn't think I was counting, did ya?), and I have met few people with your depth of knowledge of these trucks and their history. More than anyone I know, you have proven to be a true good will ambassador of the Power Wagon community, and you offer sound, reliable advice. I see no cause for you to be "corrected".

We all know there are several ways to perform a given task, and to suggest otherwise is arrogant, condescending and rude. While Charles can be respected for his many accomplishments, he commands less the last word on any of them. These are his opinions and he has a less than tactful way of sharing them at times. You have bent over backwards a little too far on this subject, and I will not stand for you feeling pushed out from these forums.

Not everyone has the room to pull an entire engine/bell housing/transmission assembly. And while it may be a handy operation to pull off on an M-37, it’s not an easy, or recommended, task on a civilian Power Wagon.

As you alluded to, the steering column must be detached from the underside of the dash and the cab tipped back to even consider such foolishness. Anyone familiar with the civilian trucks would know this. There is no down-side to following the manual in this instance, and it is far easier for the average guy to accomplish. Who needs a 6 foot long, 800lb+ lump of iron swinging around the shop, especially when you are likely working alone?

No two shops have the same resourses, either human or material. So let Charles shake is head in contempt for our foolish, inefficient, and "backwards" processes. It all has to come apart, one way or another. I am with you 100% on this, so sit your butt back down, you aint goin anywhere!

... and I look forward to see you in a few weeks!


CD

[Charles Talbert]

I agree, leaving isn't necessary

Clint doesn't need to go anywhere, and I've made that known in a previous post.

My tact in explaining my position in various areas could use work lots of times, I've also made that known right here in this forum more than once. I'm not a highly educated person in respect to speaking or writing, it shows, and I've also made that known numerous times. While admittedly falling short so many times, I know what I know, if it works, I know it, if it doesn't, I know it, and I will tell you just that straight up. Many times when my wife has been present to hear a phone conversation, she reminds me that it should or could have been worded differently in some way or other. She is right, but that most often doesn't click with me until she has pointed it out and explains why. It's 1 of my many short comings that I just don't know how to change quite honestly.

As far as I'm concerned, in this type of discussion, there is no last word to be had, so I see no way anyone could have that as was suggested. It is simply the way I know works best and is easiest for us here, and yes we have restored about as many power wagons now as we have M37's; so we aren't a novice in the disassembly and assembly of the civilian power wagons. What ever works best for another is their call; and is in my opinion certainly no reason to leave this or any other site as a result of a discussion of what works best for whom. This was just to let the person asking the question know that they have more than 1 option, so they can consider what they have at hand and make an informed decision. My regrets as to my failure to communicate exactly the message I was trying to convey in an appropriate manner. I also went back and said what we have in our rigging that makes our method work better in our environment. If we were in a different environment, or equipped differently, no doubt my opinion for performing this task would be different, so a person would have to base the procedure they follow to accomplish the given task on where it is being done, (environment) and what they have available to work with. I have found myself in many situations over the years where I knew that better existed, but I didn't have the means, so I had to resort to using what I had that would work when considering both available equipment and help. Every time this influenced how I approached getting the job done. I have no idea what this gentleman has to work with or his expertise; he may have better equipment to work with than we do. This wouldn't be the first time I had come to realize that to be the case.

In closing Dave, moderator or not I've noticed 2 things that stood out in your post in regards to this supposed disagreement. That is your obvious scolding of me and your telling Clint you'll see him in a few weeks; that being said, we all know where you stand and pretty much why you stand there, at least it's obvious to me. You may wonder why I say that; well it's due to what 3 different people who have attended numerous Iowa Rally events have told me face to face right here in the shop. To better explain, you have talked to all 3 of these individuals in person at the Rally more than once; you would recognize the names of these people if I called them, so yes all 3 know you better than you might think. One of these folks said he attended the Rally 12 times, I would consider that a regular who really enjoyed the gathering. He told me 2 years ago he didn't think he would ever go back again, and as far as I know he hasn't. Surprised, and knowing he had attended many times, I immediately asked why that was. His reply all but knocked me off my feet in a sense, but when I had a while for what he said to sink in, although I never expected to hear what I did, I saw where he was coming from, and why that was his opinion. Of the other 2 that have shared about Rally experiences, 1 has said he would likely never attend again, and the other shared a really sharp contrast between folks he had met at the Rally and us here. Again I was dumbfounded as I would have never expected to have heard as he put it, how things and people really are. You have pointed out my already admitted short comings in communication very sharply, and I might suggest you may want to pay just a little closer attention to your own words, like with me, people also pay attention and form opinions of you based on what you say, and how you say it. I shared these facts for one reason, Dave you have readily let all who read here know what your opinion is of me based solely on my wording in postings, while the real fact remains; you simply don't know me at all. I didn't think this was part of a moderator's job, reckon I'm learning some new things too.

I've said many times that I would like at some point to be able to attend the Rally in Iowa, no telling how many people from all over have asked why they've never seen me there. Even had some who have called in weeks after a Rally saying they attended expecting to see us there and wanted to talk. I mean who could enjoy power wagons and not want to attend the Iowa Rally at least once. There are 2 main reasons why I have never been able to attend, and neither has anything at all to do with incidents like I've just discussed. Maybe at some point I will be able to attend, if so I look forward to meeting and getting to know you and others a little better at that time. Hopefully then we could see and understand each other's conversations in writings in a different light. That would be because we would have had the opportunity to really know who the author is.