Electrical anomoly

[ddarnell]

Bud does not run well at all. Starts and idles though kinda rough with an occational miss. As soon as any throttle is applied in gear it stumbles and will hardly accelerate. I installed an Edelbrock intake and carb. Checked vacuum and it's pulling a steady 20 inches. Timing is at 8 initial but I can't tell where it's ending up because the marks don't go past 10 and the balancer mark dissappears up under the WP. I'm thinking ignition so I started checking values and voltage at the various points in the ignition system. Heres the strange..........as soon as the key is switched on the entire system voltage drops to 9V. With the engine running all points are where they should be. Still working through it but I thought I would thow it out here anyhow.
David

[712edf]

Is Bud the 76 W200?

Where all are you getting the9 volt readings? When running there won't be a full 12 volts at the (+) side of coil, due to ballast resistor. Does the voltage increase when engine is running back to 12?

I think its a good time for someone here to do a series of youtube videos showing the electric workings of a Dodge truck. Wiring/ignition/electric problems seem to plague 99% of these sweptline & lifestyle trucks. Upon purchasing a truck, I just go ahead & tear out all the wiring & start all over. Just as fast as fixing everything one by one.

bucky

[ddarnell]

Bud is the 76W200. I WAS getting 9V at all points past the battery with the exception of those points on the other side of the ballast resistor. I just got back from replacing alot of the wiring and connections and now have 10.9V at each point. My book specs 10.5V with the key on so I'm right in there. All of the wiring in the ignition system now checks out. Electrical is troublesome on alot of vehicles. The Porsches are notorious for bad electrical. One is far ahead to replace any and all wiring. I could certainly do a video on the common troubleshooting procedures but again it's better to replace all of it.............particularly if it's 30+ years old. Connections in any low voltage system are problematic and should be avoided. The harnesses are a wonderful aid in the manufacturing process, speeding up the assembly, but make no sense in a system that only has 12V to drop. Grounding is another issue. Steel is a horrible conductor and only gets worse with rust and corrosion. When I rewire any car, such as Porsches, I run a point to point copper grounding conductor of sufficient size to handle the anticipated load and minimize voltage drop. I am doing the same with Bud and will be eliminating as many of of the connections as possible. In the case of a Dodge truck that will be the bulkhead connectors and others in the dash area. Will of course rid the dash of the ammeter.
So I'm starting to think I now have a fuel mixing problem. Checked flow on the fuel pump and it's squirting quite nicely. I plan to throw a known good LA engine carb on it tomorrow and see if it clears up.
Cap, rotor, plugs, wires look good. Firing order correct, distributor correctly clocked, timing in the ballpark, and the vacuum is good.
In an unrelated area I did note that the transmission throttle shaft is resting at the front of the slot with the throttle (carb) closed. I do believe it should be resting at the rear of the slot.
David

[Deathdeelr]

I've narrowed my own personal electrical experiences with the W200 down to the following:

1. Stock Ammeter - search the site; there's load of info on bypassing and other options. Fire Hazard.

2. Grounds - as you said, corrosion is the enemy of electricity. Many of my initial electrical gremlins were solved by running the negative side of the battery to the engine block, then that same point to the frame, another from the negative battery to the radiator support. I ran a final ground from the bed to the frame in the back of the truck. It goes without saying that all these points got cleaned to the bare metal before connection and primed and painted after.

3. Fuse-able links - REPLACE OR REMOVE THEM ALL! If you remove them I would of course suggest in-line fuses but I've since replaced all of mine including one that's not on the wiring diagram in the shop manual for the alternator field (I found this one the hard way).

When I got the truck the blower motor was inop and so was the stock horn. Someone (probably my brother) wired a push button on the dash for the horn. After I did the new grounds I cut out the push button and reconnected the wiring to the steering column and "beep beep" she went. Did I mention the heat works great?

BTW, yes, the throttle pin should be at the rear of the slot. The throttle valve needs to know where the carb is at all times before she'll shift correctly. If it's wrong you'll be in 3rd before you get out of the driveway. My truck was like this for many years and I was waiting for the trans to finally give so I could replace it (figuring it was the trans). After a while I took a friend's suggestion and installed a B&M shift improver kit hoping to fix the problem. While looking through the shop manual during the install I realized what was actually wrong, slapped myself around a little for being so stupid, then adjusted the throttle valve linkage correctly. She's a beastly rig.

[ddarnell]

I adjusted the throttle valve shaft to the proper position. Swapped a know good spark box and coil to try to get it to run better. Also played with the timing, ending up with 3.5 at 700rpm idle with 40 at 2350. It sure seems like it's advancing too far too quickly. The net result was that drivability improved slightly. Was driving from my shop back home and it died. Would not restart. Didn't have time to diagnose, although I do know that I forgot to tighten the distrbutor clamp. It wasn't spin around loose but just loose enough to adjust the timing. I'm wondering if could have possibly moved enough to shut it down.
David

[Deathdeelr]

I can believe that a loose clamp could cause the distributor to spin enough to stall the engine. Reset that first.

An old wise man once showed me a way to adjust ignition timing. He said do what the motor wants, not what the book wants.

First get the motor running and put on a vacuum gauge to read directly from the intake, not on the carb. Reason being it's easy for some people to mistake a timed port for a full vacuum port. Disconnect the vacuum advance from the carb and put a cap over the port. Now hook up your timing light.

Adjust the idle speed to about 700 to 750 rpm with the throttle idle screw.

Adjust the idle mixture screws on the carb to get the highest vacuum reading. Once you get the highest reading reset the rpm back to 700-750.

Start to advance the distributor. The rpm's are going to come up. When the idle reaches about 1000-1100 stop turning the distributor and drop the idle back to 700-750 with the idle screw. Keep doing this until the engine starts to ping or miss. Once you hear it start sounding funny STOP! Note the timing and drop it back 3 degrees. Nine times out of ten you should be around 12-15 degrees advanced. Lock the distributor down, reset the idle to 700-750, and readjust the mixture screws to get the maximum vacuum one last time. Now you can reconnect the vacuum advance, readjust the idle and you're done.

My 318 runs exactly 12 degrees initial advance at 750 rpm with 87 octane. When I put it in drive the rpm drops to 650 on the nose which is perfect; not too fast to clunk the drivetrain; not so slow it stalls. I'm not really concerned about maximum advance so long as the motor responds like I want it to. My Camaro used to like 15 degrees but that had a much more aggressive cam in it than the Dodge. If I remember correctly the first time I did this was on my Suburban which liked 12 degrees.

[Williespeed]

Is Bud the 76 W200?

Where all are you getting the9 volt readings? When running there won't be a full 12 volts at the (+) side of coil, due to ballast resistor. Does the voltage increase when engine is running back to 12?

I think its a good time for someone here to do a series of youtube videos showing the electric workings of a Dodge truck. Wiring/ignition/electric problems seem to plague 99% of these sweptline & lifestyle trucks. Upon purchasing a truck, I just go ahead & tear out all the wiring & start all over. Just as fast as fixing everything one by one.

bucky

712edf If you replace everything you miss out on the excitement of the dash fires. That kind of excitement is difficult to replicate and should not be left out of the Power Wagon experience. However as I have already experienced this momentous event I will be rewiring the cab from the firewall plug back.

Other than that I agree with everything else, I'm not sold on it being ignition from what you've covered unless you have a faulty plug wire that is arcing outside the insulator instead of down the dialectic. Start it up in the dark and watch the wires for spark it should coincide with the miss. but I gotta think it's fuel delivery or possibly a internal distributor thing, that is only if it didn't die from the loose clamp

[ddarnell]

I have checked under the hood in the dark.........no fireflies. I'm now leaning to fuel as well. I'm just going to go ahead and swap on my known good TQ from Jackie (72 Scamp) and see if that helps. There is an issue with the advance however. I'm getting about 35-40 degrees of total advance in by 2200 RPM. Busted spring?

A guy I used to work with came in late one day, out of breath and looking a bit rattled. He asked me if I had full coverage on my car (67 Valiant) and I said no. He then asked if I had a fire extinquisher in my car and I replied no. He said you really should get one. His 72 Caddy had a short under the seat and before he could do anything effective the whole car was detroyed. ALL cars in the fleet now have an FE onboard...........especially the Porsches!

[Williespeed]

ok so I am guessing then that it is a mechanical advance dist and not a Vacuum. I'm not sure if it is a dual spring dist or not but that or a tired spring could certainly F up the runability including all kinds of hit and miss BS at idle and all through the range. If fuel is not the issue once Jackies carb is on I would pull the Dist and have a good look at that. but thats the **** part about electrics it could be oxidation on a terminal in the electronic ignition.

[ddarnell]

I took the distributor apart and got it back to fully funtional. Timing curve is now more what I would expect with about 12 intital and 38 total after 2300 RPM. The carb was the problem. I bought a "rebuilt" Edelbrock 1406 from an online seller with a good reputation. I did have my staff mechanic put the carb on and I don't know if he fiddled with anything. It's my understanding that the Carters run on the idle circuit a little longer than the Holley. That would not explain the continued poor performance well past idle. Could be dirt or crap somewhere in the carb. Still not running tops however.
Thanks for your interest and help.
I have a couple other issues to resolve but I think I'll post seperate threads for those
David

[voodoodadi]

I had the same gremlin

My 78 warlock is a 440cu,eld.torker manifold with an 850cfm
per.series carb.my cam is ?but it must be a big dog.normal vaccum is 10-12in.what resolved my stumbling under initial
load and occ. Missing was too install a short plunger for the
accelerator pump.it still idles like my harley but,no stumbles.
Timing is set and test.i live at 9000ft/alt.go figure.good luck.

[The Other Ross]

I can believe that a loose clamp could cause the distributor to spin enough to stall the engine. Reset that first.

An old wise man once showed me a way to adjust ignition timing. He said do what the motor wants, not what the book wants.

First get the motor running and put on a vacuum gauge to read directly from the intake, not on the carb. Reason being it's easy for some people to mistake a timed port for a full vacuum port. Disconnect the vacuum advance from the carb and put a cap over the port. Now hook up your timing light.

Adjust the idle speed to about 700 to 750 rpm with the throttle idle screw.

Adjust the idle mixture screws on the carb to get the highest vacuum reading. Once you get the highest reading reset the rpm back to 700-750.

Start to advance the distributor. The rpm's are going to come up. When the idle reaches about 1000-1100 stop turning the distributor and drop the idle back to 700-750 with the idle screw. Keep doing this until the engine starts to ping or miss. Once you hear it start sounding funny STOP! Note the timing and drop it back 3 degrees. Nine times out of ten you should be around 12-15 degrees advanced. Lock the distributor down, reset the idle to 700-750, and readjust the mixture screws to get the maximum vacuum one last time. Now you can reconnect the vacuum advance, readjust the idle and you're done.

My 318 runs exactly 12 degrees initial advance at 750 rpm with 87 octane. When I put it in drive the rpm drops to 650 on the nose which is perfect; not too fast to clunk the drivetrain; not so slow it stalls. I'm not really concerned about maximum advance so long as the motor responds like I want it to. My Camaro used to like 15 degrees but that had a much more aggressive cam in it than the Dodge. If I remember correctly the first time I did this was on my Suburban which liked 12 degrees.

I set one like this years ago(440)never touched it again.Gordon ought to archive this proceedure,cause it's the best tune up advise I ever received.