57 Pow Giant W200 -- Underhood Pix Please

[jackw19]

I'm trying to undo some of the PO's damage to my 57 W200 Power Giant. This won't be any kind of show truck, but I want to turn back the clock a little.

It'd be a big help to have some original (either untouched or restored) underhood photos, but I'm having trouble locating these online or in Dodge books.

I'm also considering moving the battery underhood (this happened in 58, right?) so a pic of the battery installation on a 58 would help too.
If anyone's got some photos, pls post. I'd appreciate it very much, and if you come thru Idyllwild CA, I'll pick up the lunch tab.

[KC Kay]

I think I have some underhoods in here. Let me know if there are any other shots that I might be able to take for you or if you have questions.

http://57powergiantpowerwagon.tumblr.com/

[jackw19]

Xlnt Pix

KC, thanks very much. Your pix are a real help.

That's quite a nice truck you have. I know most members here are total restoration people--and I'm all for that, and this is America. But having restored several vechicles I'm edging toward original paint. I spend all that money on paint, rechroming, powder coating, etc then I'm afraid to drive or park the vehicle.

Your nice shot of the cross-over is very useful, too. Between that and the drawings in the manual / parts book the muffler shop guys will have something to go on.

What did you use for floor mats? I'm trying to figure that question.

Finally, I'll send some pix of my dual master conversion. I'm just in the process of putting the master back in. I believe I used a 68 W300 drum / drum unit. I made a fairly thick adaptor plate because the stock unit had three holes on the flange and the dual only had two. The right hand ear on the dual flange overhung the mounting surface on the pedal box a little, and I didn't want to shear off the ear. Also the thick plate took up some of the extra length of the push rod. The dual must have a shallower push rod hole in the piston (although it's definitely not a dimple.)

Thanks again.

[Ron in Indiana]

Jack, did you get my reply to your email?

[KC Kay]

I have the crossover out of the truck and will take a picture of it for you.

I currently have a Chevy truck floor mat in the truck right now, but check with cjlapham@yahoo.com - they have fitted floor mats for the '57.

I'd appreciate pic's of the dual master cylinder. Great info. Thank you.

[jackw19]

More re Pics

KC, I'll take some pix of the master cylinder setup tomorrow.

I should have bought an iPhone--but once Apple got an injunction against the latest crop of Samsung phones, I had to have a Samsung Skyrocket. Only problem is that it's not as easy to use. But once I figure out how to get photos from the phone to my PC, I'll post. Maybe it's possible to upload pix right from the phone.

I checked my files and it was indeed a 68 W300 dual master that I used. This is a 1-1/4" bore unit w/ both resevoirs the same size and the outlets on the correct side for the transplant. It has built-in residual pressure valves in the outlets, which is convenient--saves buying and plumbing the externals. I assume its internal valves are both 10 lbs, as they would be for a drum / drum vehicle. And a 68 W300 wasn't available w/ front disks, was it--RockAuto shows drum/drum only. Equal size reservoirs is somewhat probabtive as well.

One thing I didn't like about this unit is that its secondary outlet is 9/16-18 inverted flare. I used AN4 hardware for the brake plumbing and it was impossible to find a steel adapter fitting in the 9/16-18IF x AN4 size. It was possible to cobble one out of a 9/16-18IFxAN6 adapter plus an AN6-AN4 reducer. Would have been easier just to use a 9/16-18 tube nut at that outlet, but I only had a 37degree flaring tool handy, and I wanted to standardize on one kind of tube fittings.

A master cylinder I'd have rather used is the dual 1-1/4" 71-74 GMC Step Van P20, P30 or G30. This is one nice, heavy chunk of iron. In the words of James Bond's armorer in Dr No, "Like a brick through a plate glass window." But there were some problems, too. It's a power brake master that's got just a dimple in its piston, and the piston is way too thin-walled to drill for the pushrod. My lathe is down, so that would've meant hiring out the job. Dale at Portland Brake Systems said he'd make a piston for $60 (plus shipping both ways). I thought that was a very fair price, but just too much trouble. Also this is definitely a disk/drum master, so in my drum/drum truck that'd entail changing out the residual valve in the primary port to a 10lb, or removing it altogether and using an external. Lastly its resevoirs are different sizes, although I think the small one would still be sufficient. In any event, I decided to use the Dodge unit and to heck w/ General Motors.

There is a capacity calculation to check in this transplant. I understand a shade-tree rule of thumb is that the typical master cylinder has a 1-7/16" (1.438) stroke. The diameter in this case being 1-1/4" (1.250), that means pi*.625^2*1.438 = 1.765 cubic inches of fluid per stroke. Another shade-tree rule of thumb is that the typical wheel cylinder piston moves max 1/8", and there are two pistons per wheel in my 57 W200, each being 1-1/4 diameter. So counting all four wheels that's pi*.625^2*8*.125 = 1.227 cubic inches of fluid required, so it looks like we're good with a margin. Besides, the master worked in the drum/drum W300, some of which apparently had even hungrier 1-3/8" wheel cylinders front and back.

I'm going to make a bigger hole in the truck floor, mainly so I can fit my dual-master power bleeder adapter to the new master cylinder. But I'd like to make this an under-hood remote reservoir installation so I can see the brake fluid level. If the level's dropping, I want to know right away--and I know I'm not going to be taking that cover off the floor very often.
I've got a pair of nice vintage glass remotes from a couple deceased Renault R8's that'd look good. I'd want two separate remotes for independence. (Never liked yellowed plastic remotes.) I can think of two ways to setup remote fill using the Dodge master I've got: i) make a cover from some 3/16" or so aluminum plate that's retained by about a dozen little #4 screws tapped into the top of the (thin) walls of the master's reservoirs, or ii) use just the outside 1/4" of the existing rubber gasket and fit the existing cover for two hose fittings, plus use the bail to retain the cover. I like ii) best--much less work--but will it leak? Have you ever seen this done?

A shot of the crossover out of your truck would be great. If you've got one handy, maybe you could include a yardstick or tape measure in the photo.

[DrPepper]

not sure if any of these shot's will help.....

my TW has had a bit of frame and engine adjusting under the hood and is still in need of a lot of work. It came with a hacked in 440 / 727 that I finally gave up trying to make fit. The original 315, front engine mount, and transmission were gone so I went with an '87 318 and 727 out of a Ramcharger. I bought the Pirate

http://s182.photobucket.com/albums/x...Power%20Wagon/

I bought the PB unit and conversion from "Carolina Classic Trucks" then found out that it actually came from MBM. I still fit good and solid.

http://www.piratejack.net/index.php?...id=16&Itemid=6

http://www.mbmbrakeboosters.com/inde...id=10&Itemid=6

The power steering is right out of the '87 Dodge RC. Stock adaptor fit right into 2 of the 4 holes in the frame with spacers.
Hope there are some views you can use.
DrPepper

[jackw19]

Pix Here

Pepper: Thanks for the URL's. Some of those underfloor power brake systems might just work--but I wanted to keep as much of the original iron as possible. The collection of master cylinders for sale would definitely have been helpful.

Pix of the little plate to mount the master cylinder and the MC itself with the Wilwood proportioning valve attached can be seen here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/90154150@N02/

The plate is 1/2" thick becasue that was about how far too much the pushrod extended from the mounting surface when I offered up the new m/c. You can see the two new holes drilled for the new m/c. There are also shots of the twin Hydrovacs, front and rear, that will power the system. There will be a lot of plumbing: vacuum for the Hydrovac's, vacuum reservoir, hydraulic in and out, and air (filters behing seat back) for each.

The remaining pix are of some welds made by the PO to the Pitman arm, drag link and steering col as part of a Saginaw power steering installation. The steering col weld looks like a pretty good full pen weld with reinforcement, the drag link looks less good, and I'm thinking about a new Pitman arm. Would have to make it ... Anyone have any thoughts about the welds? Thanks.

[jackw19]

Photos

Dr Pepper -- it's probably me being thick, but I don't see any photos on your first link. Maybe they got lost along the way, or there's a button I'm supposed to click ...

I'd really like to see em.

Thanks.

[DrPepper]

Google Photobucket and go to the home page...then

do a search for "57 Dodge Town Wagon Power Wagon", then try the "album" tab. You may have to fiddle a bit but the album is public and not locked. I retried the link above and it worked ok...?

Sometimes it just depends on the computer, but you should be able to double click on the link and bring up the Photobucket album. Scroll down and search around a bit and you should be able to find it. There are 67 photos.

As to the pitman arm, Borgeson makes a nice "bendable" 7" center to center arm that fits the Saginaw box. Part #806018, $82 It doesn't quite give me full stroke at the wheels but is close enough. Steering is very nice.
The drag link is from "Lefthander chassis", I went with Heim joints and an aluminum adjustable link. It's 3/4"-16 and way stronger than the OEM drag link.

Good luck,
DP

[jackw19]

Borgeson, etc

Thanks very much for the tip to Borgeson, Flaming River, etc; very informative sites. I like the look of the Borgeson Pitmans much better than the welded item now in place. Of course one could replace the drag link with Heims and an adjustable fitting--that's just not something that occurred to me.

By any chance do you recognize the Saginaw box in my pictures? I'm most definitely not a power steering maven. The box probably has some numbers on it somewhere, but I don't see any from the obvious angles. The bolts holding it in are double nutted with welds on the nuts, so that makes it a little hard to remove for inspection.

[DrPepper]

Saginaw is an interesting company...

What appears to be two identical boxes, when you look closely the input or output shaft may be different, the same housing may be used by either Dodge, Chevy, Ford or Jeep, etc. Shaft Diameter, Spline count, tapped holes, and cross bolt machined areas make the difference and of course the hoses. Also, internal valve pressure requirements to match the pump, etc. Best of all is their numbering system which is almost non-existant. The raised casting number on the side may be for any make/application. I read where there is supposed to be a stamped number on the box, I found one on mine but never could get a good cross reference. Always had some number or letter slightly off..??? But I knew the application and that is what matched.
I stripped a doner '87 Ramcharger rust bucket of everything I could unbolt or cut off, sold what I didn't need and pieced the '87 items onto the '57. My 87 Ramcharger box is 3/4" x 36 spline input, pitman output is 1 1/4" x 36 spline. The Borgeson guy corrected me on the size and was very helpful, can't say enough about their help getting it right. Also watch the pitman arm for a key spline, the Borgeson is fully splined so it can be placed where it needs to be. Some stock pitmans have a wide flat double spline that is no fun to file a groove into.
As to the heim joint vs. steering ball joints. I struggled with that for a long time, Heim's are "not made for the street"...so it says. I spent way to many hours trying to match the drag link thread and shaft taper to anything existing and it all goes by application, not dimensions. So, you may think the left & right Ball Joint from 19XX Chevy XX is correct when you measure it the taper is different than the dodge pitman arm. It starts to screw with your mind. Finally I looked at the OEM Dodge with a "little" 5/8" fine thread tapered BJ and installed 3/4" Heim's with grade 5, fine thread thru bolts. Eventually I'll drill the bolts for cotters and I have dust covers. The smaller Heim's are used on racing chassis, the 3/4 are used by the off road guys.
https://www.lefthanderchassis.com/v2a/LHC_v2a.asp
# 03412AB and AM
https://www.lefthanderchassis.com/v2...dgroup=2513296
I have an advantage since Lefthander is a short drive from me and they were very helpful.
The orientation of your box is like the original Gemmer with the vertical pitman, when I mounted my box I tried it both ways, with and without the 87 adaptor plate. I drew pictures and measured the movement of the steering arm (~9" stroke from lock to lock) and finally settled on the same orientation as the 87 Ramcharger. My hoses fit almost exactly where they are supposed to go. Oh, and I had to build/modify the original pump mounting to raise it up 6" as it was in the way of the frame. The Borgeson pitman is the longest off the shelf center to center I could find. It is made to be heated and bent so I put a twist in it to keep the Heims from binding at the end of travel. It is still not going to give me a full wheel lock to lock as the Gemmer but is close enough to work well. I putt around in front of the house when I want to turn it around and the turning circle is OK without locking the box. and steering feels the same as my Dakota.
That's part of my story...hope it helps.
DrPepper

[KC Kay]

Jack,
Sorry it took so long. There are 3 pics on the tumblr site that shwo the crossover with a yardstick. Let me know if you need more or different.

Thanks for the pic's of your master cylinder.

http://57powergiantpowerwagon.tumblr.com/