Rivet Replacement

[QuantumJo]

I have parts on my 79 1 ton 4x4 frame that are held on with rivets that need to be mounted to my 77 2WD 3/4 ton frame. What is the best fastener to replace rivets on the frame? I was leaning towards nut and bolt, perhaps welding the nut to the bolt.

Anyone who has had prior experience please share what method you used.

[Gordon Maney]

I have had readers say they used grade 8 bolts. I think the restorer might like the rivet idea, but I don't believe there is any good way to do those properly.

I don't believe I would weld the nut in place.

[Kevin in Ohio]

Rivets have more holding power than a bolt of the same diameter because it is "forced into every nook and cranny when being smashed. You also have to remember that a bolt's strength is only as strong as it smallest diameter.(meaning the bottom of the threads) So a 3/8" bolt where a 3/8 rivet was isn't as strong. Threads also tend to chew the steel if they move around from flexing or looseness so they normally recommend shouldered bolts.

With all this said, I have used normal grade 5 or 8 with no problems. If it's a 3/8" I use a 1/2 inch bolt. On our old spray trucks which would twist and bounce everywhere and we'd had have rivets pop. In 10 years of replacement on ALL of them I did, NOT ONE broke or caused a problem. Frames and springs broke but carrying over 3 ton off road tends to do that.

Don't eld the nut them. There is no reason.

[Desoto61]

Rivets have more holding power than a bolt of the same diameter because it is "forced into every nook and cranny when being smashed. You also have to remember that a bolt's strength is only as strong as it smallest diameter.(meaning the bottom of the threads) So a 3/8" bolt where a 3/8 rivet was isn't as strong.

For this to be true you have to know the material strength of the two fasteners. The rivet may have a larger working diameter but I doubt the steel has the same strength characteristics as a grade 8 bolt. A 1/2" rivet of 10,000 psi steel is technically not as strong as a 1/2" bolt (say 3/8" effective diameter) made of 15,000 psi steel (the bolt would be technically stronger by 625 lbs). I'm making up numbers but you get the idea.

[QuantumJo]

Thanks for that feed back Kevin. It's good to hear that you've had success with shoulder bolts in place of rivets.

[MoparDave]

I just swapped my 2wd front suspension to 4x4 and used grade 9 bolts I found at Fastenal to replace the factory rivets in the engine saddle and leaf spring hangers. New crimp style lock-nuts finished it off.

[Kevin in Ohio]

When I say rivets have more holding power I'm not basing that on clamping force, I'm talking more about latteral movement. When a rivet it set CORRECTLY it is forced completely into both pieces of steel.

A lot of time manufactures punch their holes oppisite ways on the 2 pieces being joined. The holes are tapered to that effect and they achieve a lock you can't get with a bolt. If you take a piece apart you'll find the rivets body is sometimes offset as it was force in the misaligned gaps, Thus giving it a tighter clamp than a bolt would, The only way to get close to thr same in that aspect would be to have shouldered bolts and ream EACH hole to size as you go. Baiscally making everything press fit. Paint will cause looseness eventually and that is why the factory frames were painted after they were put together.

My project truck is all bolted together. Took all the rivets out and replaced with 1/2 shouldered bolts. I painted each piece seperately and then assembled so My frame will not be as "one" as a factory piece but I wanted complete rust protection. Add to the fact it won't be worked like a logging truck so it will work fine for me.

When I started considering my options I did some research and found a lot of this out. Check into Huck bolts too as they are becoming more standard now as well. Keneworth has been using them for quite a while and those trucks know weight. ;)

[pwdave]

Kevin, huck bolts are probably the strongest system out there. having said that, I hate huck bolts, I used to work in a truck shop, shortening wheel bases, lenthening wheelbases, installing bodies, dump beds and many other app's. try removing 80 or so of those things, your hands will be so tired and hurt so bad that you can't even pick up a cup of coffee. I hate huck bolts, did I mention how bad I dislike huck bolts? Dave.

[Kevin in Ohio]

Kevin, huck bolts are probably the strongest system out there. having said that, I hate huck bolts, I used to work in a truck shop, shortening wheel bases, lenthening wheelbases, installing bodies, dump beds and many other app's. try removing 80 or so of those things, your hands will be so tired and hurt so bad that you can't even pick up a cup of coffee. I hate huck bolts, did I mention how bad I dislike huck bolts? Dave.

I have never worked with them, was just relaying what I was told. I'll take your word for it! ;) I assume they are hardened so drilling is out. What's the procedure, if it isn't too much of a bad memory. We used to use a carbide drill bit on field saves with hardened bolts.

People have told me bolts will loosen and break when you replace rivets in vehicle frames but as stated before. Never had one do that efter install. I did have rivets near the bolt break after replacement but the bolts was still tight, Go figure.

[pwdave]

huck bolts

Kevin, the way we got them out was this: cut the swaged end off with the torch, being very careful to stay out of the frame, plus you do not have time to tarry, it has to be quick! then you get your pardner to hold the punch(rr spike hammer) hold on each rivet and hit with a eight pound hammer,hard, don't miss!, makes pardner really mad if you miss too much because it hurts your hands so bad. the punch we had, had a steel handle welded on. if you didn't hit the thing square, it would vibrate all the way up into your shoulders, ouch! when the rivet came out it would fly 30+ feet across the shop, when this was going on no one was allowed to work down wind. now multiply by 60 or more to get all the stuff off to move the rears,x-members, spring mounts, spring shackels, shock mounts, ect., ect., you get the idea, and all got replaced with gr 9 black flanged bolts and nuts, hammered down with a good impact gun. I'm sure that somewhere in this world there is a hydralic thingie that presses out those rivets but we did not have one, so it was the cave man way. two of these a week was a night mare, maybe you can see a little bit of what I have seen in these words. will you be at the rally? maybe we will have a chance to talk a little. Dave.

[Kevin in Ohio]

Dave,
Whatever works with the removal of the bolts. Sometimes an air mammer will work in situations like that but a big hammer is ALWAYS an option!

No Iowa for me this year. I'm knee deep in painting the cab and hope to get ALL the painting done this summer so I can final assemble this Winter. That's the plan anyway ;) Bodywork is done on the cab and sanding slicksand at the moment. Starting to look like a feasable project! It's nice to see it all coming together. Kevin

[pwdave]

rivets

OK, maybe next year then. Dave.