More Shop Room Needed

[bosco]

Presently I have an old 34' x 34' pole barn, which I am using as a workshop and storage area for all my toys. It has some major problems ... carpenter bees have taking a liking to it and I am tried of fighting them. The tin roof leaks and the plywood siding is pretty much shot. Plus it's just to small for my needs. What I would like to do is demo this pole barn and erect a new steel building.

I have read in the archives that some of you have built new shops and hopefully will share some of you experiences. The steel building I want to erect is 40' x 60' x 14' side walls enclosed with a 20' extension on one end without walls. I have a rough estimate on the building, but I have not yet received any bids for the foundation and electrical work. I do plan on doing alot of the electrical myself, but some things are best left to the experts.

I would appreciate anything you could offer in helping me in getting this project off the drawing board and on the ground. Any ideas on foundation cost per square foot, electrical cost per square foot and the cost of erecting such a building. Plumbling is another issue that I may consider, depending the overall cost of the project.

Thank you for any help you can offer.

[HWooldridge]

You can save a good bit by doing your own form work, excavating the footings and laying the steel. Any foundation book will give guidelines on dimensions for desired ratings. I think a full 4 inch slab on two feet of fill with 1/2 inch rebar should be enough for most any home shop if you have footings every 12 feet or so but the professionals here may recommend more.

I have a shed roof that is 12 foot on the high end and that is not high enough for a monorail and my 2-ton hoist. I have trouble picking tall stuff out of a pickup. I agree that 14' is better and 16' is not too tall. Think about a manual bridge crane that can go anywhere in your shop - very convenient.

If the shop is not air conditioned, put it long ways to the prevailing wind and either two big shed doors on the ends or a bunch of windows to catch the breeze. I seem to remember you are in Houston and we all know how hot it gets there (I am in Central Texas near SA). I am on a hill with no trees or brush within 50 yards so I can catch any breeze that comes sneaking around.

I have a dirt floor but wish I had a slab on part of the shop for the machine tools. At any rate, I did all my steel and siding and you could do the same if you can weld. I also put the roof purlins up but had a professional roof guy lay the metal. I bought the material and he put it on for $150.

My first shop was wood with tin roof and was destroyed by a severe storm 9 years ago - nothing left standing but the poles. The current shop is 24x36 and cost about $3000 when I rebuilt. I am not going to guess at a current estimate with everything inflated but if pressed, I'd budget $15-20K depending on how much you do.

[Paul Cook]

Howdy from Kempner...

My Museum building is 50' x 60' with 12' side walls. The Roof pitch is 3" per foot. The building has roll insulation that has an R-7 rating. This insulation is like bubble wrap with a foil reflective surface toward the building's metal skin. This is adequate to prevent any re-radiation of the sun so there is neither the heat radiation you feel in some metal buildings nor is there any heat gain to the inside air temperature. When it's 105 outside, it's 105 inside. And when its 30 outside, it's 30 inside.

The end doors are 12' x 12' at the front and 12'wide x 10'high at the back. I chose 50' for the width of the building since I can park a row of vehicles along both sides and still have a 10'+ center aisle.

I have a number of folks who stop to see my Museum and I have still others who stop to inquire about erecting a similar building. The usual question is cost. The builder told me to tell them the cost would be around $18 per square foot. Thats for the turn-key building with a slab buiilt to carry vehicles in the POWER WAGON weight range and the insulation described above. That does not include electrical or plumbing. This estimate was a year ago. Steel price increases may affect this.

Click on "www" at the bottom of this post to go to my Museum site and scroll down to the Museum building information for pictures.

[bosco]

Some good points here. I like the idea of plenty of windows for additional ventilation, as I am not considering installing A/C. Mother Nature will have to provide the breeze with the help of fans. The extra windows will also help with more light during the daytime. I was considering skylights, but canned that idea.

I do agree that doing most of the work myself will save me $$, but I believe the site prep and foundation is beyond my expertise. I will have to call in the pros for that activity, unless they will cut me a deal by helping layout the steel work. The electrical is more my line of work.

The insulation that is spec in the building quote has a R-10 rating (roof and wall). I also requested a steel wall inner liner that is 8' high. A ridge vent will also be installed.

Paul ... your Museum building looks great. I will have to get up there and check out your facility and vehicals.

Thanks for all the info and look forward to hearing additional pointers ... good are bad.

[MoparNorm]

Bosco,

The metal building supplier should provide you with engineered foundation drawings. The drawings will show the location and size of the foundation bolts needed to support the steel columns and the thickness and type of re-inforcing steel needed. Depending upon your location there are a few regional factors that will impact the cost, such as California or Siesmic codes, windloads and/or frostline requirements.
The building bid should include insulation by the building installer as the under roof insulation is properly installed with the roof sheathing. Depending upon climate, I'd also recommend insulated doors, a tad more expense but you'll save that cost over the span of a few years by lowered heating/cooling costs and with a tighter, more comfortable building. A 12'X 14' door is a good size, wide enough to use practically, tall enough for a motor home. The next size smaller, 10' door will be a target with an 8' wide vehicle.
Shell cost for a 40 x 60 building should be around $35,000. Make sure that the metal guage is no thinner than 24 gauge and that finish is baked enamel or Krylon. Cheap buildings are not cheap when they are dented and rusty.
Jonas can tell you horror stories about certain building manufacturers. I've seen Pauls building and it's just what you'd want.
MN (CA Contractor since 1973)

[Charles Talbert]

Another thought on concrete

My shop is the same one I used when doing heavy construction. The floor has 8" of compacted stone base under it, plastic sheeting,reinforceing wire, with rebar around the edges under the block walls. The 4,000 lb. mix concrete is just 4" deep in the floor area & 8" under the walls. I'm in the process of doing a metal structure addition onto this building. The concrete contractors are recommending to stay away from the reinforcement wire & use a 4,000 lb. mix concrete with fiber strands in it. This product is only a few years old, & does a fantastic job. Saves cost because it's already in the concrete mix, just pour & finish. I had equipment to do all the excavating & stone compaction when the original building was built, but have found cost savings not to be substantial over letting the concrete contractor handle it, plus if you were to have a problem, you have a leg to stand on because he did the whole job. The 4" 4,000 lb. mix has done great here, no cracks after 20 plus years, I've run dozers & lots of tracked equipment over it, a few minor scars from the tracks, but amazing how well it's held up.

[HWooldridge]

Charles,

Are you saying the pad has no steel at all - just strands randomly mixed in the concrete?

[BobbyMike]

If it's the same stuff being used up here (NY/MA) it's nice. Only thing to dislike about it is that the strands can "float out" and look messy when the floor is done (can look a bit fuzzy). I don't know many foundation guys up here who don't use it now for garages.

Just be careful with the steel scraps from the siding/roofing. I know from experience that it's very sharp, I had a piece bounce up from the scrap heap I dropped it on (from waist high) and slit my wrist for 5 stitches. That was through the deerskin gloves I was wearing.

Extra windows are good in a shop. Just think about putting them higher than you would want do use the walls (wall space can become a premium even in a 40'x60' space). When we had our studio (40'x60' w/ 16' ceiling) we usually only had lights on over the 16'x16' pad we worked on. The daylight coming though the windows (on 3 sides) would provide plenty of light.

Also putting windows higher (6' -8') prevents unwanted "window shoppers" from seeing what you have.

Plumbing can be a great thing in a shop for comfort (toilet), convenience (sink), safety (eyewash station), but where it really shines is in clean-up. If you add a outdoor faucet you can hook up a hose and spray down the floor when it gets dirty (either add a drain, or wash/squeegee the mess out a door). Beats sweeping and having to deal with clouds of dust. If your going to do any painting, give this serious thought!

Regards,
Michael

[pieter]

Fiber strands are just that. They can be either Fiber(like fiberglass strands) or they can also be steel. The steel ones look really nasty and I'd hate to step on one. Think of a flattened nail that is sort of serrated/bent. I don't know if I have any samples at work anymore that I could take pictures of.

A lot of people are leaving out reinforcing all together with cost of steel rising, labor to put it in. They just thicken the slab thickness to 6"+ and be done with it.

Not to contradict what MoparNorm said, but towards the Midwest, the Pre-engineered building people don't touch the foundation. They give us an anchor bolt plan and the loads down to the foundation and we take it from there.

Then we take that and draw/engineer a full foundation plan.

Pieter

[Charles Talbert]

Originally posted by HWooldridge
Charles,

Are you saying the pad has no steel at all - just strands randomly mixed in the concrete?

This is correct, no steel wire. I wouldn't call it randomly mixed, this fiber is there in force in a very dense state. Finishing process needs to be done by someone with the skills to work it, does a super job.

[bosco]

Lots of good info here.

MoparNorm ... you bring up some interesting issues, . Here on the gulf coast frost and siemic matters are a no issue. Wind is the main problem in this area. The manufacture of the building I am considering has a windspeed rating of 120. Metal gauge is another good point. I'll admit I have not investigated many manufactures of steel buildings in my area, but the ones I have contacted are using 26 gauge steel. The steel is also coated with Galvalume that is prime coated and painted with silicon-modified polyster paint backed by a 30 year warranty. I would like to hear from Jonas, regarding the issues he has had.

Paul ... I am curious what the specs are on your Museum building. You being in Texas (but a bit further North) I would appreciate hearing more.

I really like the idea of the fiber strand reinforced concrete that Charles mentioned. It may cost a bit more per yard, but it may save in labor and material cost of installing the wire mesh. Good tip. I will investigate.

Everyone has provided me with some great info and I will put it to use. The cost of a shop this size is very expensive and any info I can optain from folks that have had expericence will save me some bucks.

Thanks to all....

[MoparNorm]

Originally posted by pieter

Not to contradict what MoparNorm said, but towards the Midwest, the Pre-engineered building people don't touch the foundation. They give us an anchor bolt plan and the loads down to the foundation and we take it from there.

Then we take that and draw/engineer a full foundation plan.

Pieter

Let me clarify, the metal building supplier doesn't install the foundation or slab, they only provide the calculations and the anchor bolt placement plan. The metal building requirements are the minimum requirements, sublimented by local codes and requirements and are indeed provided by our structural engineer. For the purposes of an owner builder, the metal building guidelines may be adequate, the local building department will dictate any additional requirements and that should be one of his first stops, BEFORE he gets too far committed.

As for fiber slabs, some really like them, but here they are in addition to our siesmic requirements so the savings is nill. I don't like the "hairy" finish, I prefer a "Burned" in trowel finish that is nearly as good as an epoxy finish and a LOT cheaper. Re-inforcing steel is about the cheapest thing you can add to a slab, NOT wire mesh, but #5 bars will provide a 6" slab with 504,000 lbs of capacity per square foot with a 3,500 psi mix.

MN