Anyone put 5.9L Cummins in Power Wagon?

[jpf1030]

Howdy All,
I've been a subscriber to PWA magazine for a few years, but this is my first time posting here on the forum, which I'm learning my way around. For some reason I can't find a single posting on putting a 12 valve 5.9L Cummins in a Power Wagon. We would sure appreciate any guidance help we could get in this. As we were pulling the '50 PW down to the frame, I was noting possible modifications we could make in moving everything forward to make room for a 12 valve. Frame horn and hood extensions won't pose a problem, but maybe there are other issues I'm too dumb to realize yet.

I'm about to put another lengthy posting up about our first frame off resto on a PW, now underway with a bunch of ?'s. Gordon suggested I post my letter to him with those ?'s here on the forum because ya'll are a bunch of sharp guys that could help dummie greenhorns like me. We have done other frame off's, but never a PW. In addition to the '50 model now underway, we have a '47 plus we have a couple of W series 300's and a 200 waiting in the wings.

We will look forward to participating in this forum and thank each and every one of you who may be able to give us some guidance. Thanks a bunch!...Jim

[MoparFreak69]

Some things to ponder when considering this swap. The Cummins 6bt engine family weighs in around 1000lbs. A stock flathead six runs pretty close to under half of that. The Cummins puts out 500 ft lbs of torque easily, a flathead six is also at least half under that. The stock frame just isnt up to the task of handling that might weight and power. Considerable reinforcement is absolutely necessary to make this conversion drivable for any amount of time. The rest of the drivetrain will need to be upgraded as well, just to handle that power.
Dimensionally the Cummins is huge. The 94-02 Ram pickups were barely long enough under the hood to contain the beast. I dont think one will fit under the hood of an earlier truck without some serious firewall modification.
You may look into the 3.9, commonly known as the 4bt engine for your swap. It is basically a 5.9 with 2 cylinders lopped off. Much shorter but takes many of the performance parts that the 5.9 takes and cna make some pretty decent power. They are much shorter, couple hundred pounds lighter, have the same bell housing/engine adapter pattern so a 5.9 auto trans and manual trans will bolt right up.

[jpf1030]

Reply to MoparFreak69: Anyone put 5.9L Cummins in Power Wagon?

Howdy MoparFreak69,
Thanks a bunch for your comments and advise. We much appreciate it. We are looking at the feasibility of moving everything forward to accommodate the 5.9 rather than tearing into the firewall. Yes, agreed we would need to do some reinforcement along with the forward extension changes. Though it would be an interesting project, we will probably wind up looking for a replacement T137 engine. We really are up in the air as to which way to go at this point...Jim

[HRT5SLCFD]

Go for it

I'm putting a 5.9 in my four door Carryall. Your frame won't hold it, so you better just forget the PW frame. I suppose you could box it, but still not big enough. Also better think about bigger springs, hangers, axles, and wheels. There is a picture on the web (some where) where a guy has put a PW onto another, newer frame. It looks great, except he moved the grill shell forward, but left the fenders. He also streached the hood about 3-4". It looks very nice with little firewall modification. You will need to do something similar, other wise you will need to cut off about 6" of your leg bone to get your feet to fit in. I plan on streaching my hood, hood sides, (and the most fun) the fenders. Then cut the entire stock firewall out, and remake a new flat one with a small recess for the 6bt. If you have photo shop, you can mess around a little to get an idea of what it would look like. The sad part about a 4bt, is they are so expensive, loud, and old. If done right, the 6bt (5.9) will look great, plus it has the name (Dodge) on your engine. If you want a 5.9 go for it.

James

[jpf1030]

Reply to James: Anyone put 5.9L Cummins in Power Wagon?

Howdy James,
Thanks for the encouragement. You have said pretty much exactly what we were figuring we would have to do, so it is nice to receive a validation. We will probably put that project off for another PW since we have gone to a total frame-off restoration on this one. We would hate to make mods. to one which we can take back to original new condition. I looked into the 4BT's some more and that recommendation is still a possibility to consider, though we will more than likely just try to find a good TI137 to put in it. It sucks that the old guy who did a nice overhaul on the engine had done it on a '38 Plymouth engine which looks exactly like the TI137 on the exterior. If this was not such a complete resto, we would stick with this wonderful engine. But, I'm sure it would be a huge negative to whomever would be the buyer of the PW when we are done. Oh well, maybe we will find another use for the engine or try to sell it. My, my, my, what a learning experience in our first foray into restoring old PW's! We have about completed the complete resto of the chassis, so we will have to make an engine decision soon. Thanks again for your thoughtful and detailed reply...Jim

[OLD DODGE]

Jim,

You will find that most of these old Dodge trucks have had their engines replaced with Dodge and Plymouth passenger car engines. Its just a fact of life. Having said that I do find it very refreshing to find an original motor in a truck or at least any truck engine sitting where a truck engine belongs. I wouldn't focus too much on it for your restoration though.

Take a look through the registry and you'll see.

http://www.t137.com/registry/display.php

[MoparFreak69]

Howdy James,
Thanks for the encouragement. You have said pretty much exactly what we were figuring we would have to do, so it is nice to receive a validation.

I hope I didnt seem like I was trying to put a damper on your idea. If you have the need/money to perform a swap like this more power to you. The 6bt is a heck of an engine and will make a lot of power on not a lot of fuel when called for. I just wanted to make sure you were aware of what it entails throwing that great big heavy sucker under the hood of your truck and what is likely to happen if proper planning isnt exercised.

[MoparNorm]

Howdy MoparFreak69,
Thanks a bunch for your comments and advise. We much appreciate it. We are looking at the feasibility of moving everything forward to accommodate the 5.9 rather than tearing into the firewall. Yes, agreed we would need to do some reinforcement along with the forward extension changes. Though it would be an interesting project, we will probably wind up looking for a replacement T137 engine. We really are up in the air as to which way to go at this point...Jim

There are very few 5.9's, installed, mostly 3.9's.
The 5.9 fits into later W200's without cutting the firewall, but you have to sacrifice the intercooler, heat exchanger.
In your truck it will be, very, very tight. Too bad they don;t make a lightweight, mock up engine for that 1200 lb paper weight... = )

[jpf1030]

JPF Reply To Kevin On Incorrect Engine For PW

Jim,

You will find that most of these old Dodge trucks have had their engines replaced with Dodge and Plymouth passenger car engines. Its just a fact of life. Having said that I do find it very refreshing to find an original motor in a truck or at least any truck engine sitting where a truck engine belongs. I wouldn't focus too much on it for your restoration though.

Take a look through the registry and you'll see.

http://www.t137.com/registry/display.php

Howdy Kevin,

Thanks for your input on the engine, we do much appreciate it. My only concern with the '38 Plymouth car engine, though a fine running rebuilt engine that was in the PW, is that it would really hurt the value in going as far as we are going with the restoration.

If it was just a through clean-up and new paint job, I would agree that the engine would be fine. However, we have this '50 down to the frame with everything being restored. Though it is our first PW, we have done several other all out resto's on other vehicles. Even being a small family operated shop in the mountains of Montana, we are probably anal to a fault in the quality of our work. We are leaning toward putting a rebuilt TI137 in it for purists.

But, but, but, we still will wind up with having on it a non-standard "mystery" bed. I will try to get time to post another thread about that to see if anyone has any ideas. It is a story by itself.

Thanks again to you and the other PW guys here for going out of your way to help newbies like us. Though this is our first, my Dodge passion goes back to my 1964 pickup I painted and fixed up in 1970. We have a 1947 PW, along with 1964 and 1965 W300's and a 1967 W200 crew cab we will be doing later. They are all nice trucks already, so they will not be near the work of this '50 PW.

We really appreciate all the help from you guys...Jim

[BrightRanch]

Hi Jp,
I have a 6bt in a 58 W300M it can be done, but its not a lot of fun.
I had to move the firewall back 7in the donor truck was a 91 with the overdrive auto I kept the auto for a number of reasons, foremost it allowed me to move the whole drivetrain back to accommodate the extra length. That got around having to lengthen the front end and the fenders.
The leg room is the same because I built a dog house around the engine in the firewall.
The big problem is the width you will have to widen the front end approx. 10 in to be able to use the newer radiator and intercooler.
I transplanted the mounts and crossmember from the donor truck haven't had any frame troubles yet. Knock on wood it stays that way.
Had to build a 2in body lift to get the cab to clear the bell housing and exhaust.
Also had to build mounts for airbags on the front to handle the extra weight.
We kept a tally on the number of times we put the cab on the frame just to pull it off to modify something, the final count was 37 times on and off.
So plan on having it grow roots in the garage for a while, definitely more than a weekend project.
If I had to do it over again I would have kept the 440 that was in the truck or better yet went with a 318.
The Cummins is a great "gee whiz that cool" deal but isn't even close to being worth the headache.
Oh and one final thought if you do this, better keep ear plugs in the glove box because you cant ride in it without them.
There are more pics of this in the "dual rear output 205" thread.
If you decide to go for it, let me now if I can help in anyway.

[jpf1030]

JPF reply to BrightRanch on 6BT Conversion

Howdy BrightRanch,
Thanks a bunch for the informative reply which cinches the deal, we are not going to do this. Though we could manage it, we just don't have the time and funds to tie up our shop that long. If we ever decide to try this, you will be the one to quiz again and again!...Jim

[BrightRanch]

You bet Jim if I can help out let me know.
Good luck whichever way you decide to go. These trucks are way too cool to not do something with.
But you better budget an extra 30 min when you drive it someplace, Everybody and his brother will want to check it out.

[jpf1030]

JPF follow-up to BrightRanch on 6BT Conversion

Howdy BrightRanch,
Thanks a bunch for your offer. We bought a '55 Dodge with a T338 over in Lewiston, Id. last weekend that we are working on getting running now. It will be a far better engine for our '50 PW resto than the '38 Plymouth P6 engine that was in it. At least now it will have the truck 230 cid. Since we are in neighboring states, I checked Mapquest to see the distance, which is 750 miles between us. People back east don't realize how far it is across some of these western states. Good thing you are not at the farthest point in Wy. and us in Mt. or it would be about 1200 miles between us! Though it is too far to make a trip down there to see yours, maybe sometime in the future if we are making a trip back to the midwest, we could contact you. If you ever head further up into the NW, our welcome mat is always out and the coffee pot on. We can even dig up a little Irish sweetener when the occasion calls for it! Thanks again for your help.
Happy Preparedness Trails,
Jim
Jim Farley, Gen. Mgr.
www.sosgeneralstore.com
Founder: www.bsoscblog.com (self-reliance preparedness group)

[MoparNorm]

... People back east don't realize how far it is across some of these western states.

Ha! Ha! I'm always reading about a complaint, "We had to drive 35 miles to get to the dealer..."

Heck, people in the west drive 35 miles, one way, just to get a cup of coffee. = )

[iranch]

It's 1281 miles from Elk Point, SD to Yaak, MT. South Dakota and Montana are neighboring states. Points from within Texas to the neighboring states and southern CA to points north will be more than that , but still, 13 hundred miles is a long ways.

Dennis