Need to find best $ & availability on 4bt???

[Desoto61]

No, we don't talk about all we have done or how we got there, our custom set ups have had much time and $$ invested, and this is a living for us; so that explains that.

I wasn't knocking your decision, just that unless one is willing to do the R&D work themselves, or buy it from you, it's not as easy a swap as the other manual tranny options for someone doing it them-self, and most parts for the other setups are readily available from any auto parts store.

[mcinfantry]

I try to use as much off the shelf and COMMON parts as I can. So I can fix it anywhere....

[MoparFreak69]

I try to use as much off the shelf and COMMON parts as I can. So I can fix it anywhere....

Thats my take on doing a swap. When I swapped a fuel injected 318 into my Wrangler I used a Chrysler bellhousing to bolt up to my block and allow me to bolt a Jeep transmission directly to it. The flywheel came from a donor truck and the clutch setup came from a donor Jeep. They bolted together like they were made for each other, because essentially they were, by someone that had already spent the millions of dollars of R&D so I didnt have to do it myself. I was then also able to retain my stock transfer case and because I am using all stock parts I can go to any auto parts store and get a clutch, or whatever else I may need, off the shelf for reasonable money. Sure full blow custom is nice if you have pockets that never end and a wallet that is an artisian well of green. No sense in reinventing the wheel. If something out there works why not use that instead of spending hours and dollars trying to make something else equal to whats already available?

Some people just have to go the tough route I suppose. More power to them.

[Desoto61]

To be perfectly fair to Charles, from my research most of the parts will be off the shelf, it's just what shelf for what vehicle. Most of the stuff for the Spicer setup will be for larger commercial vehicles.

Chances are he has NAPA or Cummins part numbers for most or all of the pieces. But the 4BT swaps groups don't have much on this swap that goes:

Use SAE3 bell housing and the clutch assembly from a xx year yy model truck and bolt it together.

Some are using SAE2 mountings with adapter rings to go to SAE3 bell and some strange combination of clutch parts and custom throwout bushings/bearings. Plus you still need his custom OD to really get the benefit of using that setup in our trucks.

My setup is basically the Cummins Chevy adapter & flywheel with the 93-95 Chevy NV4500 parts bolted behind it. Same goes for the Ford or Dodge setups.

[Charles Talbert]

Well you guys seem to think our set up is custom to the point that no parts are available except through us, hardly. We did our homework with the same thoughts in mind that you folks have. Actually it is likely one of the most economical set ups out there and is pretty much bullet proof. I love simplicity and heavy duty when the 2 can be brought together, that's how we strive to do it. We have used it for 12 years now behind Cummins engines, with a few slight improvements along the way. It has proven itself time after time in all types of applications.

Nothing wrong with some of the other transmissions when used in applications they were designed and built for. I love the integrity of these trucks, why not install a transmission that compliments that is my strategy.

[Charles Talbert]

To be perfectly fair to Charles, from my research most of the parts will be off the shelf, it's just what shelf for what vehicle. Most of the stuff for the Spicer setup will be for larger commercial vehicles.

Chances are he has NAPA or Cummins part numbers for most or all of the pieces. But the 4BT swaps groups don't have much on this swap that goes:



Some are using SAE2 mountings with adapter rings to go to SAE3 bell and some strange combination of clutch parts and custom throwout bushings/bearings. Plus you still need his custom OD to really get the benefit of using that setup in our trucks.

My setup is basically the Cummins Chevy adapter & flywheel with the 93-95 Chevy NV4500 parts bolted behind it. Same goes for the Ford or Dodge setups.

The 4BT swap groups obviously haven't done their homework effectively. Anyone that would use a #2 housing with an adapter ring just isn't with it, I know no other way to put it. I keep hearing talk about various adapters, bottom line, they aren't needed; so using one is extra expense and 1 more item that can be flawed and cause problems. I steered away from any and all adapters when we built our Cummins/5-speed unit. The adapters many have machined in an effort to install this have almost certainly cost more than our simple bolt it together set up.

The most solid advice I know of to share is this; when one starts to search for info about doing this; use your common mechanical knowledge. Going to this, that, and the other sight in an attempt to see what someone else may have done is not the smarter way. Checking out available info is fine, but don't try to be a copy freek. Just because someone else may have done it this way using this or that component doesn't make it the better way. It may be easier to copy another's project; but given some thought, you might just be able to do it better on your own.

I never look at 4BT swap sights. While that is ok and things no doubt can be learned; I prefer doing things my own way after taking time to think them through. Most of my mechanical knowledge has come through front line experience of the past 40 years. Most every working day has been around mechanical equipment during those years; much has been learned about good and not so good set ups. If I had not had this experience, it simply couldn't be picked up quickly from some swap sight. You are better off learning what will fit on your own and not searching a sight that says get these components from this model year and do it. Free info is great if you KNOW it's the best info for the application; but can you really know that without using your head and some hands on?

[MoparFreak69]

There really is no mystery anywhere. If you want to bolt a big trans (10spd +/-) to the back of the 4/6bt platform go get an adapter out of a cummins powered medium duty Ford. If you want to bolt an NV4500/NV5600 to it go find a cummins powered Ram pickup with a 5/6 speed. If you want to bolt a 727/A518/A618/etc to it, go find a cummins powered Ram pickup with an auto. If you want to run a GM auto trans, find a Frito Lay truck donor and get the engine adapter off of that. For flywheel/flex plate you will pretty much just grab that off of the same donor as the engine adapter to keep it simple. You can usually freely switch between clutch discs if need be, as long as they are not too large for the pressure plate nor too small so that the pressure plate touches the flywheel.

These arent specific rigs to look for. The cummins 4/6bt platform was used in a ton of rigs. Call around to junkyards, talk to the older guys. They are the ones who will know where to find what you are looking for. My local guy has worked with my dad for going on 40 years. I just give him a ring, tell him what I am after and he will either tell me right away or call me back in a few minutes with a suggestion, whether it is something he has to sell me or not. I know he would do the same for any other customer because that is the kind of business man he is.

Some people seem to feel that they are super cool because they know something that others may not. If I was looking to do this swap and came across the information of the perfect donor rig type for the engine adapter I would freely provide that information, because that is the type of person I am. Want to put an AX-15 behind an LA/Magnum engine? Go find an early 90's 2wd Dakota with the 3.9 and there is your bellhousing.

[Charles Talbert]

There really is no mystery anywhere. If you want to bolt a big trans (10spd +/-) to the back of the 4/6bt platform go get an adapter out of a cummins powered medium duty Ford. If you want to bolt an NV4500/NV5600 to it go find a cummins powered Ram pickup with a 5/6 speed. If you want to bolt a 727/A518/A618/etc to it, go find a cummins powered Ram pickup with an auto. If you want to run a GM auto trans, find a Frito Lay truck donor and get the engine adapter off of that. For flywheel/flex plate you will pretty much just grab that off of the same donor as the engine adapter to keep it simple. You can usually freely switch between clutch discs if need be, as long as they are not too large for the pressure plate nor too small so that the pressure plate touches the flywheel.

These arent specific rigs to look for. The cummins 4/6bt platform was used in a ton of rigs. Call around to junkyards, talk to the older guys. They are the ones who will know where to find what you are looking for. My local guy has worked with my dad for going on 40 years. I just give him a ring, tell him what I am after and he will either tell me right away or call me back in a few minutes with a suggestion, whether it is something he has to sell me or not. I know he would do the same for any other customer because that is the kind of business man he is.

Some people seem to feel that they are super cool because they know something that others may not. If I was looking to do this swap and came across the information of the perfect donor rig type for the engine adapter I would freely provide that information, because that is the type of person I am. Want to put an AX-15 behind an LA/Magnum engine? Go find an early 90's 2wd Dakota with the 3.9 and there is your bellhousing.

I share a huge amount of general M Series truck info on this and other sites to help people. You are free to feel however you wish about sharing and do it however you see fit.

How many Co's who have developed various products do you see freely handing out the details of how they did it? How long would they be in business if they did that? If I were specifically a hobby builder, I wouldn't care and would say much more. You must realize that since this is a huge portion of our businees and livelyhood, we just don't make all details public knowledge in these areas. It isn't that I feel I'm cool because I may have figured out issues that others may not. Like I said in an earlier post, we really haven't done anything that is impossible to others if they apply themselves. While some seem to have a problem with us not sharing every detail; well maybe some time might be better spent at the drawing board or actually doing hands on rather than spending it being frustrated with us because we don't tell it all. M Series is a growing, thriving business that specializes in building and improving these trucks for use in all types of applications. We also face competition from other builders. All need to realize we aren't just in the garage on weekends and spare time. I hope this will help you to have a clearer understanding of our viewpoint.

[Desoto61]

The most solid advice I know of to share is this; when one starts to search for info about doing this; use your common mechanical knowledge. Going to this, that, and the other sight in an attempt to see what someone else may have done is not the smarter way. Checking out available info is fine, but don't try to be a copy freek. Just because someone else may have done it this way using this or that component doesn't make it the better way. It may be easier to copy another's project; but given some thought, you might just be able to do it better on your own.

I never look at 4BT swap sights. While that is ok and things no doubt can be learned; I prefer doing things my own way after taking time to think them through. Most of my mechanical knowledge has come through front line experience of the past 40 years. Most every working day has been around mechanical equipment during those years; much has been learned about good and not so good set ups. If I had not had this experience, it simply couldn't be picked up quickly from some swap sight. You are better off learning what will fit on your own and not searching a sight that says get these components from this model year and do it. Free info is great if you KNOW it's the best info for the application; but can you really know that without using your head and some hands on?

But that can be a very expensive and time consuming learning method. While there is no substitute for hand's on knowledge, we go to school to learn from the mistakes and discoveries of the past because to do otherwise would mean we never make progress.

I'd love to have the access and equipment to spend my days trying to bolt things together and see if it works, but I do not build these trucks for a living and have not been alive for 40 years let alone have the experience from it to figure out the best design. Taking time off of work to try and get some guy at the Cummins dealer to hold my hand while I figure out how to spec out the right stuff for a one-off setup just isn't going to happen.

Those swap sites all show people trying to figure it out. And maybe they don't have the best setup for my situation, but they do show the many hundreds of dollars and many hours of work trying to figure out what is the best setup for their particular situation with their particular set of resources. Using their mistakes and experience to save myself that time and expense is just smart. I don't need to copy everything, but I can still take the pieces I've learned and combine them in a new way if it suites me. That's why you share your knowledge here, and why we all appriciate it.

No one is asking you to give away your trade secrets, and I really do admire the amazing work you do, but I don't have the luxury of the resources or time to just randomly start bolting parts together till something works. So I do a lot of research, try to understand the benefits and downfalls of each option and pick the ones that work best for me.

[Charles Talbert]

I agree you won't have much luck getting a Cummins employee to hold your hand, most if not all will know less than you do about what you are trying to accomplish, even after you explain in fine detail. We know Cummins options and specs that are available; our engines are new and spec'ed by us in such a way that they best fit our application. They don't figure that out; we do, then we order the engine accordingly.

When we take delivery, we change what we need too in order to get specs exactly as needed. Cummins does not source clutches and other similar items. Clutch specialty sources have clutch specs by dimension and type. If you understand how to measure up for items like this and are aware of different types of clutches that are available, this should be easy to figure out and source a proper product.

A 4 cylinder Cummins has 31 different flywheel options you can choose from. You will have to source a clutch based on the flywheel you have. If you have the flywheel that is best suited for the application, clutches are far less difficult to source. Purchasing a take-out engine is cheaper for sure, but not having the freedom of choice in how it is equipped can make things far more difficult when it comes to mating the best components for a given application.

What I'm trying to say is this; a flywheel that comes on a take-out engine may not be the one you really needed, thus can make clutch sourcing very difficult. This is just one example, trying to put a repower together using what you have may be much more difficult in any number of areas than putting a set up together starting out with an engine that is set up like you need it to best fit the application.

[MoparFreak69]

But that can be a very expensive and time consuming learning method. While there is no substitute for hand's on knowledge, we go to school to learn from the mistakes and discoveries of the past because to do otherwise would mean we never make progress.

I'd love to have the access and equipment to spend my days trying to bolt things together and see if it works, but I do not build these trucks for a living and have not been alive for 40 years let alone have the experience from it to figure out the best design. Taking time off of work to try and get some guy at the Cummins dealer to hold my hand while I figure out how to spec out the right stuff for a one-off setup just isn't going to happen.

Those swap sites all show people trying to figure it out. And maybe they don't have the best setup for my situation, but they do show the many hundreds of dollars and many hours of work trying to figure out what is the best setup for their particular situation with their particular set of resources. Using their mistakes and experience to save myself that time and expense is just smart. I don't need to copy everything, but I can still take the pieces I've learned and combine them in a new way if it suites me. That's why you share your knowledge here, and why we all appriciate it.

No one is asking you to give away your trade secrets, and I really do admire the amazing work you do, but I don't have the luxury of the resources or time to just randomly start bolting parts together till something works. So I do a lot of research, try to understand the benefits and downfalls of each option and pick the ones that work best for me.

Well said Desoto. I too agree that some of the combinations people have come up with and posted on sites like that may not be the best for you/my situation, but like you said, it is other people's experiences to draw from so that we dont have to go down that road ourselves only to find out it doesnt work for us.
It makes me a bit upset when you get someone who has "been there and done that" that simply sits back and bashes sites and situations like that without feeling the need to offer any information to the contrary. Some people just dont get that no matter how much money I have, I am not going to pay someone else to do something for me that I can do myself, and have fun at doing. Even if I could afford to go out and buy whatever truck I wanted and have whatever brand new drivetrain I wanted put under it and have it all restored to perfection for me, I would never do that. If I wanted a new engine/parts obviously I would have to go to a dealer to aquire it but that would be the extent of my use of a business to achieve my goal. I am not alone in that thinking either, take a look at all the members of this site and others just like it, people like to 'do it yourself'. So basically if I am not going to use your shop anyway for and of my work, what have you lost by providing some information? Nothing. What can you gain? Well I may choose to use your establishment as my sole provider of parts, even if you charge a higher premium than other retailers. There is always a give and take in business, some people just dont understand that. Oh well, can't change the world can we?

[Charles Talbert]

Just a couple of thoughts

I don't know if I would have any comment about info on said sights or not, because I haven't looked at them; I certainly haven't bashed them.

If it makes you upset because I don't freely hand out certain info for reasons I've already fully explained, then I'm sorry you just don't understand good and necessary business practice, like you said, we can't change the world or certain individuals points of view can we?

Also great if you don't want to use any given business for whatever reason. I'm glad we can still exercise freedom like that in America.

You might take a few minutes to give some thought to the other side of the issue though. I appears to me that your thoughts as stated here in this thread always seem to roll back around to the fact that you just don't get why people in the know don't just blurt it all out for you; after all you don't need their service, so what do they possibly have to lose? How many business owners do you know that will spend valuable time telling you about what they have spent time and resources to learn and work out when you have made it quite clear that you don't intend to do any business? You mentioned you may source some parts, well we aren't a parts vendor, so I couldn't help you there either.

If you only seek free info as you have plainly made it appear, well you might better stick to said sights as your source; business owners and their employees who realize the importance of necessities; and realize they must show a profit in order to stay in business simply won't have the time to take away from their customers to work on your basis. An older gentleman shared a line with me years ago. He said, "there is no glory to be gleaned from this; YOU MUST MAKE A PROFIT." He was right.

This all brings to my mind 1 simple question; do you lay awake at night thinking of how you can glean in ways so that you have nothing invested and desire only to take away for your personal benefit? It sure is beginning to sound that way. I know a guy who joking uses the line "if it's free, it's for me" quite frequently. I'm wondering now if you were the inventor of that line.

[MasterYota]

See Charles... I'm not the only one...

I'm not going to bash Charles, he's proved time and time again that his understanding of stock pieces and components is second to none, and he's freely shared that sort of repair information because there is no profit in it, other than those in need enjoying his good will probably makes him feel good.

I wonder constantly though at why he bothers to post in threads concerning conversions. His company is not a vendor of parts, as he's stated, and he dosen't share his "proprietary information" as there's no profit in it. I've read at least half a dozen of his posts in this thread alone with zero content inregards to the OP.

Why are you here Charles? What information do you have to share thats relevant to the OP's question? I'm fairly certain that you've got the infomation and specifics to share, as you've managed to convince almost everybody that your a Diesel genius; or we've just been fogged in by the best conman ever. I don't know... And we'll never know, cause you'll never share enough info for us to figure it out one way or the other. As for me, I quit taking any stock in your opinion's years ago, as your own advice dictates that I would be better off figuring out any problems on my own rather than listen to you anyway...

[Gordon Maney]

So basically if I am not going to use your shop anyway for and of my work, what have you lost by providing some information? Nothing.

What can you gain? Well I may choose to use your establishment as my sole provider of parts, even if you charge a higher premium than other retailers. There is always a give and take in business, some people just don't understand that.

Charles is possibly the biggest contributor of technical information pertaining to M37 and diesel conversion here, or one of the biggest. I am not sure, and certainly don't want to offend other contributors, as all are greatly appreciated. I find it remarkable that Charles spends as much time as he does here, dedicated to procedure and craft, sharing his considerable knowledge, skill, and experience. His alternative? Spend all that time he spends here somewhere else, such as in his shop, directing that time and effort to his business directly.

His time here is the give in your give and take. Your reading of his contributions is the take in that equation. Any business owner must weigh what is reasonable to give and what is proprietary information critical to ongoing success. Charles, just like so many business owners, has invested much in the way of time, effort, and real money in acquiring his expertise and depth of experience. Those are critical assets not to be given away.

I have a parallel experience. Many people ask for free copies of the magazine. They say they may subscribe. I had other publishers say, don't do that, as people asking for free things rarely buy. I conducted my own research over a period of years. I discover that people who ask for free samples do not subscribe, and people who are really interested simply subscribe.

I suspect Charles has spent many thousands of dollars making false moves, trying wrong parts and wrong methods, in the evolutionary process of developing his methods. If I was Charles, I would not behave any differently.

I am very grateful to Charles for his presence and contribution.

[MoparFreak69]

I don't know if I would have any comment about info on said sights or not, because I haven't looked at them; I certainly haven't bashed them.

You sure didnt sound very supportive or appreciateive with this comment, only a bit up this very same page

The 4BT swap groups obviously haven't done their homework effectively. Anyone that would use a #2 housing with an adapter ring just isn't with it, I know no other way to put it. I keep hearing talk about various adapters, bottom line, they aren't needed; so using one is extra expense and 1 more item that can be flawed and cause problems.

How can this be taken any other way that someone saying HAHAHA I know how to do it, the way they do it is stupid and useless, which is exactly the impression I get from just about every one of your posts.
I dont care if you like me or what you think about me. I dont care what you have been doing and for how long you have been doing it. I dont care if you have been making people happy for 100 years. It seems like I am not alone in my impression/opinion of your posts.

I do understand business, at least how it works in this neck of the woods. You help one person out with a bit of info and that person will more than likely tell their friends who will sooner or later have something they want you to do for them that they will pay you for. Does it always work? No. Does stockpiling your information like it is top secret confidential information gain you a good reputation as a business? Certainly not. Point blank if you think you can run a successful business without providing some kind of extra incentive to customers you are mistaken. Sure good work quality and ethic will keep the customers you have returning, but guess what, poeple move, people die, people change tastes and hobbies and your customer base is always changing. You have to do something to attract new customers or you are just waiting til the day you close the doors for good. Vic Edelbrock sure didnt get the place he is by keeping his modifications/upgrades to himself for his own good.

Get upset at me all you want, I am not disturbed by the way anyone thinks of me. Do I know everything? Nope. Do I pretend to know everything? Nope. I do know a lot about a lot and will argue what I know til my teeth turn blue if thats your cup of tea. If you cant handle it, well, sorry for you.