4Bts and M37s

[warlock440]

Thanks VERY much, CG, this is really beginning to sound good! It sounds as if it will actually be easier to swap in the 4BT than to do the mods/upgrades I was planning with a 360/A-518. Not only that, but the A-518 should live a lot longer behind the 4BT as they apparently did just fine behind 1st gen. 6BT's. I'm counting days in sweet anticipation!

JimmieD

If you are thinking about using an A518 from behind a gas engine on a Cummins it will not work.. The tranny for the Diesel has a different bellhousing than the gasoline version..I also believe the diesel tranny has more and heavier duty clutches..Torque converters are also different with the diesel having a lower stall speed to take advantage of the diesels low RPM torque producing ability..

[JimmieD]

Hmmmm....I was figuring on a different converter, but wasn't figuring on a difference between A-518 bells! This tranny is a HD unit so it should be good on clutches. That would be a real bummer on bellhousing difference. Got any links where I can get more info on this? Any ideas about adapters?

JimmieD

[warlock440]

Probably try the turbo diesel registry..

[JimmieD]

I posted over at Diesel truck resource and got a similar answer, Warlock440. Fella sid tranny bellhousings are different. But, he also said all A-518's behind a 6BT need an adapter plate to make it work, and to check with Cummins to find out if they make one for the tranny I have.

Other possibilties: get ahold of the Cummins A-518 adapter and:

1] See if the Cummins adapter plate can be drilled to bolt to 360 trans
2] Use it for a pattern to custom cut my own adapter plate
3] Forget the whole thing, sell this A-518 and get the right one....?

I'm wondering if the 4BT and 6Bt use the SAE 3 bellhousing pattern, anybody know? I got the spec. sheet off of your site, Cabell, but didn't see which SAE Bellhousing fits 4BT's. Don't know if I missed it or it wasn't there.

[Russ Erickson]

Another source for bellhousings?

A while back, I took a bellhousing from a '90 Dodge CTD with Getrag 5-speed and set it against the back of an IHC 345 c.i. V-8. Four of the bolt holes were a perfect match between the bellhousing and the back of the IHC engine. The Getrag bellhousing was made for a driver's side starter and the IHC engine had a passenger's side starter, and this is why the rest of the holes failed to match. The bottom line here is that there are literally thousands of IHC bellhousings available, and they are set up for passenger side starters. Some enterprising feller (CG?? or Charles Talbert??) probably could make it work with a 4BT engine.

[warlock440]

[QUOTE=JimmieD] A-518's behind a 6BT need an adapter plate to make it work,[QUOTE]

All Cummins require an "adapter" Also known as a Flywheel housing The only ones I know of are the SAE sizes, one for the chevy bellhousing, and the Dodge pattern which is specific to the Cummins.. If they had to cast a special block for each application it would be an inventory nightmare as well as having to have several different core castings.. By making all the engine blocks the same they can keep inventory down and and put engine parts for the desired application on as the engine comes down the assembly line..


[QUOTE=JimmieD] Other possibilties: get ahold of the Cummins A-518 adapter and:

1] See if the Cummins adapter plate can be drilled to bolt to 360 trans[QUOTE]

I do not believe there is enough material for this as the V8 bellhopusing is smaller than the cummins



[QUOTE=JimmieD]2] Use it for a pattern to custom cut my own adapter plate[QUOTE]]

That might work as I believe that is what fordcummins does for the kit for putting the Cummins in Fords


[QUOTE=JimmieD]3] Forget the whole thing, sell this A-518 and get the right one....?[QUOTE]

This is in my opinion the best option..

[JimmieD]

Thanks for the help, Warlock440.

Just like many other vintage Dodge owners I want to keep the truck 'ALL DODGE!' but tranny's are kind of the wild card in swaps. I'm rethinking the 4BT install.

I'll be buying a breadtruck and it will have a transmission behind the engine with all of the parts spec'd by engineers to perform in service under loads. For the most part all of the manufacturers make decent transmissions. If they're not reliable or strong enough there's aftermarket parts for any of them to take them to higher levels of performance. Based on that I'm now thinking it most practical and realistic and a whole lot less time, money and hassles to simply stuff in whatever I end up with. Currently I have very little time to complete the install so this solves loads of problems in the short term.

That would give me a running rig right away, and at a later date I can assemble needed pieces to make it 'ALL DODGE!' once again if I'm having trouble sleeping.

JimmieD

[BobbyMike]

Thanks for the help, Warlock440.

Just like many other vintage Dodge owners I want to keep the truck 'ALL DODGE!' but tranny's are kind of the wild card in swaps. I'm rethinking the 4BT install.

I'll be buying a breadtruck and it will have a transmission behind the engine with all of the parts spec'd by engineers to perform in service under loads. For the most part all of the manufacturers make decent transmissions. If they're not reliable or strong enough there's aftermarket parts for any of them to take them to higher levels of performance. Based on that I'm now thinking it most practical and realistic and a whole lot less time, money and hassles to simply stuff in whatever I end up with. Currently I have very little time to complete the install so this solves loads of problems in the short term.

That would give me a running rig right away, and at a later date I can assemble needed pieces to make it 'ALL DODGE!' once again if I'm having trouble sleeping.

JimmieD

As I'm no Charles Talbert, or Cabell Garbee I'll probably go a similar route.

Looks like I'm going to have to tackle that new shop soon!

[CGarbee]

To answer a couple of questions in some of the posts since I was last visiting...

I have looked at adding AC and such to my truck using the Cummins brackets... One can also use the parts off a Dodge RAM and do the same thing... Very easy to do and Lee Alessi down in Baton Rouge is the one to really talk about it as he put AC on the 4BT that he had in his M715 and will be installing it on his 4BT powered Carryall... On-board air and powersteering are also easy to add as they are gear driven from the from the timing gear assembly... All you do is get your parts manual and cozy up to the counter at your local Cummins shop (my favorite, incidently, is not my local Cummins distributor but my local Komatsu dealer--closer to my office and very good folks behind the counter...). Or, just spend some time at the wrecking yards.

The flywheel adapters available from Cummins for the 4BT are the current Dodge pattern for the NV4500/4600 and the SAE#3. Last time I talked to my Cummins distributor, they couldn't find a Chevy or Ford pattern in Cummins parts locator, but you can get the Chevy or Ford pattern off the bread van engines since that was their application...and another Cummins shop might have better luck finding one... Roger at FordCummins makes a slick flywheel adapter that allows for the use of a Ford transmission (such as the ZF that I use) with the Dodge specification starter and clutch setup.

I really like the ZF. Extemely smooth shifting, high torque rating (420lb-ft for the S5-42 and 470lb-ft for the S5-47...), innexpensive compared to others in it's class, and it uses Mercon for lube (easy to find and innexpensive, especially when compared to the stuff specified for the New Venture transmissions...). Has a pair of SAE six bolt PTO covers (one on each side) so putting a Chelsea or Muncie PTO on them is a snap...

[JimmieD]

Thanks for the additional info, that's most helpful!

JimmieD

[BobbyMike]

I really appreciate everybody who's contributed to this thread taking the time to do so. It's all been very helpful to me in my decision making.

Don't think I'll be getting a 4BT at the May Dovebid auction as the nearest sites are way over by Philly, but there's another auction in June. That gives me time to figure out what I'll do with the breadtruck.

[CGarbee]

Best use for your donor breadtruck (as long as you don't want it sitting in the back forty as a tool shed or chicken coop, etc.) is to haul it off (or have it hauled off) to the scrap yard. You've got a nice heavy steel frame and either a steel or (more commonly) aluminum body... Metal prices being what they are, you can do pretty well on the metal...
The other parts such as the axles, radiator, etc. are worth something at the auto scrap yards or by listing them in local sales papers, but it's easier to let them go with the frame and body to the metal processor...
Remember, you can cut the exhaust pipe that was on the donor truck and use the muffler and the pipe on your PW to keep the noise down to a comfortable level, so don't scrap that system until everything is looking, sounding, and running good in your project...

Good luck.

[BobbyMike]

Thanks Cabell, that's the kind of advice that's nice to have before hand. I have 3 acres, but have limited access to most of it for something that big. I'll have to figure where to keep the breadtruck for awhile, probably be able to use my nieghbors drive for access if I bribe him with enough fresh eggs.