Problems with new low sulfur diesel?

[Jeff in N.Tx.]

I have heard a lot of stories about how the new low sulfur diesel will cause damage to injector systems in our current Cummins, and Powerstroke engines.

Is this true? Also, I have been told the lower sulfur content decreases lubrication, and that we should run some type of additive to protect our engines. If all this is true, then, what type of additive should I run in my diesel pickups? Thanks.
Jeff

[warlock440]

the sulfer in the diesel act as a lubricant for the pump.. there are additives which help the lubricity of diesel to help the older injection pumps survive or the can be rebuilt with new internals to last with the new ULSD fuel.. Personally with my older Diesel(93) I will run it til it quits then have the new internals put in but that may take awhile since I have an 06 that is now my DD..

[MoparNorm]

Low sulfur and ultra low sulfur have been the only diesel available in CA, since June. So far, no apparent side effects. I've searched the Cummins and oil industry web sites, they all claim that there is no known side effects from the new formulas, after much testing. Cummins does hedge their bets by saying that there is no "known" issues, but the time frame for testing was only two years.
I'm a firm believer that additives are pretty much wallet depleters with no or little advantages.
The main areas of concern appear to be seals and o-ring life, not engine wear.
MN

[warlock440]

I'm a firm believer that additives are pretty much wallet depleters with no or little advantages.
The main areas of concern appear to be seals and o-ring life, not engine wear.
MN

you are correct since the distributors are already adding the additives to bring the ULSD lubricity up to standards.. This info is on the Tosco(Conocophillips) and BP sites.. Also WSU has an article which if you read it has the following statement under "OTHER ISSUES"

"This reduced lubricity could result in exessive engine wear without the addition of a high lubricity additive,like biodiesel"

MoparNorm since you are the all knowing God who has to see stuff for yourself to believe it here is tha address to go read it for yourself..

http://www.energy.wsu.edu/ftp-ep/pubs/renewables/Fuels.pdfr#search='ultra%20low%20sulfur%20diesel%2 0lubricity'

hope you can read.

[Sickcall]

I read today in the paper where ULSD will be at the pump in Calif starting Friday. Is this for off road fuel also?

[JimmieD]

There are several issues regarding diesel fuel that cause many owners to use additives. To prevent algae, increase cetane rating, add lubricity, prevent cold weather gelling of fuel, or to cause water in fuel to blend harmlessly many use products like Power Service etc. The owner's geographic location or where you travel to can have an effect due to weather changes and available local fuels. From what I've heard the stuff pays for itself [at least Power Service] and is good insurance, low sulphur or not. I plan to use it every tankful when I get my truck finished and on the road especially now that the fuels have been changed.

[warlock440]

I read today in the paper where ULSD will be at the pump in Calif starting Friday. Is this for off road fuel also?

Sickcall

All the diesel leaving the refineries will be ULSD,however, during the shipping and storage process the diesel picks up residual sulfer.. The residual sulfer has the potential to raise the sulfur above the 15 ppm(parts per million) allowed.. The Distributor is responsible for making sure that the fuel it delivers for on road use is at or below the 15 ppm and can be fined several thousand dollars(IIRC it is around $32000)..If the fuel goes above the 15 ppm they have two options..Option #1 is to send the fuel back to be rerun to remove the excess sulfur.. the down side to this is the expense because you have to pay to have it shipped back to the refinery and then you have to run it back through when you could be making new fuel.. the second option is to sell it as offroad fuel which is cheaper quicker and easier for the Distributor..
By the way you have had the ULSD for several months now.. They have changed the stickers now that the fuel coming out of the pump has been tested by the EPA and found to be below the allowed 15ppm..

[MoparNorm]

Sickcall more than likely did not read my post before posting. However he may be in an area that had a later "phase-in date". Depending upon the Pollution Control District in CA, the phase-in dates were/are, June 1, Sept. 1 and a date in Oct. either the first or 15th, I can't remember at the moment.
Warlock, Thanks for your concern about my reading ability, however the link does not work....= )
Because there are several dates in CA and several more in the rest of the nation, going all the way into next summer, auto manufacturers have been in no hurry to rush the new diesels to market. Using the wrong fuel will kill the active scrubber in the new cats in the 2007 models. Because of that you will see some models not offered at all in 2007 and the ones that will be offered will be 45 state only (CA and 3 northeastern states and Minn. have the same regs.) The true 50 state legal clean diesels won't be seen until 2008. Even VW with it's 55 mpg super diesel is staying away from the CA market until 2008. Confusing gov. regulations, delayed testing and inconsistient fuel phasing will disrupt the free market for a spell and cause us to use more fuel and run dirtier, all because of "clean air" regs, ironic isn't it.
MN

[Charles Talbert]

Worst effects

Injector pumps with rotary type heads like the ones on the multi-fuel engines in the M35A2 military trucks, the older stanadyne rotary pumps found on 60's models John Deere engines, etc. suffer the worst from the lack of lubrication because of the rotary design. These type pumps definitely need something added to replace the lost lubrication.

[Sickcall]

The correct time line mandated for the phase in of ULSD diesel in CA was/is;

Refinery Jun 01, 06
Terminal July 15, 06
Retail Sept 01, 06
Locomotive/Marine Jan 01, 07

As CA is mandating a tighter timeline for introduction of ULSD and have mandated ULSD for both on and off hiway fuels, the EPA has exempted CA from labeling its retail fuel pumps.

Being a CA resident that is what I was most concerned about, but the rest of the folks in the good ole' US you can check the below site for correct information;

http://www.chevron.com/products/prod...sel/ulsd.shtml

It appears most people are concerned with the negative effects of ULSD, but I wonder what the positive's will be. I have burned many marine grade fuels (BFO's, IFO's, MDO's) delivered from refineries around the world and can tell you that next to heavy metals, sulfur is very damaging. As a by-product of combustion, combined with water, it forms Hydrosulfuric acid in the various exhaust systems and uptakes. It does not take long for this caustic corrosion to start eating away and damaging equipment, beginning right at the exhaust valves. (The same as acid rain but right in your exhaust pipe.)

Optimistic yes, but we will probably have to wait for the next round of lawsuits to settle before we know the truth.

[MoparNorm]

It's been available here in the SCAQMD regulated area since June. Too soon to have any effects on wear, but I also haven't noticed any change in mileage or power. Our pumps are stickered, but I assume that as of Sept. 1st the stickers will come off as ALL fuel will be the ULSD.
MN

[MoparNorm]

I was reading an article in 'Off Road Adventures' yesterday, which came the same day as the PWA! What a great mail day!
The article states that while CA has full emplimentation of the ULSD by Sept.1 (today). that some parts of the US are not going to go to full ULSD until 2010. That is going to be a real pain for cross country diesel drivers and perhaps why the manufacturers are not in a hurry to rush out new diesel motors for the "Gang of 5*". The article also states that the new diesels must run low sulfur OIL as well to be compliant, the new oil APA rating is CJ4, if you have a new diesel, no other oil is compliant and older ratings such as SF/CD will harm the emission systems.
MN

* The Gang of 5 is CA and four other states that follow CA AQMD requirements.

[JimmieD]

I was reading an article in 'Off Road Adventures' yesterday, which came the same day as the PWA! What a great mail day!
The article states that while CA has full emplimentation of the ULSD by Sept.1 (today). that some parts of the US are not going to go to full ULSD until 2010. That is going to be a real pain for cross country diesel drivers and perhaps why the manufacturers are not in a hurry to rush out new diesel motors for the "Gang of 5*". The article also states that the new diesels must run low sulfur OIL as well to be compliant, the new oil APA rating is CJ4, if you have a new diesel, no other oil is compliant and older ratings such as SF/CD will harm the emission systems.
MN

* The Gang of 5 is CA and four other states that follow CA AQMD requirements.

As I will soon be a cross country diesel driver what's the '...real pain..." part, Norm!?! I have read of a lot of guys using the new fuel with no problems so far, but is there something I missed, or maybe you already mentioned it? To be forewarned is to forearmed or something like that.... Anyways, Boy Scouts stuff: Be Prepared, so what's the straight scoop?

[MoparNorm]

You are fine. What I was referring too, is this; if you have a ULSD diesel motor in a 2007 vehicle, and you drive into a state that is not adopting the fuel regs until 2010, you are basically screwed. Where are you going to find fuel? That explains why Detroit has been in no hurry to rush the new motors to market in the gang of five states. Can you imagine buying a new Ram with the Cummins in CA and not being able to travel out of state? I'm looking to see if I can find a state by state list. In the meantime, unless you have a 2007 ULSD diesel, don't worry about it.
MN

[JimmieD]

Thanks, Norm. I did quite a bit of reading on several sites regarding ULSD and the common consensus is to use a lubricating additive. The early Cummins uses a rotary pump, the Bosch VE, which requires the fuel to lubricate it as Paul mentioned. Lots of products available from many companies to add lubricity.

BTW several folks have come to the conclusion that the whole ULSD thing is also yet another attempt to remove older vehicles from the roads. The known lack of lubricity and complete failure to make ANY ATTEMPT TO REPLACE IT points to a rather ugly intent on the part of those involved in the whole scenario. Remove the pollutions and remove the rattle trap polluters and get the bonus of folks having to pay much higher sales tax and fees when buying their newer replacement vehicle! Hmmm, would some folks willfully do such a thing? Answer: THEY HAVE! Just like crushing all the older vehicles in wrecking yards in CA......