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Originally posted by steved
I told him when he finally gets tired of pieces falling off to give it to me for a farm truck...
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Very interesting and informative - thanks for sharing. My son has a '90 Dodge 3/4ton 4wd with Cummins and it is true about the engine and body. The driveline seems bullet proof but the doors will barely stay closed. Windows are cracked, electric accessories are shot, upholstery is gone, etc. I don't know what the diff ratios are but it won't go faster than 70 mph. However, it will pull a steel gooseneck full of hay and four horses at 70 and get about 17mpg while doing so.
I told him when he finally gets tired of pieces falling off to give it to me for a farm truck... -
I haven't read the posts following yours, so forgive me if this has been covered, however Dodge and Cummins do not recommend or cover under warranty usage above B20. What you may have confused in my post is P100, which is NOT bio but pure vegetable oil. The 2nd gen 1998 to 2002 trucks have a weak lift pump that is not recommended for use with P100, but the 1st and third gen Cummins works just fine with the P100 that can be anywhere from free to $1.50 a gallon. (I paid $2.65 a gallon today for petroleum diesel, cheapest in SoCal for nearly 8 months)Originally posted by steved
MNComment
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I find it interesting that there are so many brands. Are some of them European, or are some old, American brands that are only used in marine applications?Originally posted by Sickcall
I suspect that there are some very old diesel engines still in service. How old might some of them be?Power Wagon Advertiser monthly magazine, editor & publisher.
Why is it that the inside of old truck cabs smell so good?Comment
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First time posting!
Oilfield work trucks.
At work we had 2 Dodge 2500. One gas 360, one diesel, both NV4500.
Now we got 3 ferd350. 2 diesel, one gas V8, two autos, one 6-speed.
We're always towing 8,000 oilfield trailers with tools and other stuff in the back.
This is my findings
1. The gas trucks will sit their and idle all day long with the A/c on just like a diesels with no problems.
2. pick-ups with sticks get about 5 mpg better than autos.
3. gas trucks don't wear out the right rear tire LoL.
4. " " handle and stop better.
5. " " cheaper to maintance, less wear.
6. " " 5-6K cheaper out the door.
7. " " you can sit beside some one or order food without shutting it off to hear.
8. " " don't wake up the "O" ladie when leave for work.
9. " " will pull the grade just as good if you let it rev.
10. Mannnn diesel trucks pull a lot better than gas trucks.
11. diesels don't need as much shifting.
12. " " vibrate you to sleep when you have standby time.
13. " " get stuck eisier than gas trucks.
14. " " don't get tugged around by the trailer as much and easier to keep it on the road.
15. " " fan is to noisy when reved up
16. This is the biggest bonus of the diesel. If the customer likes you .... fill up ..... diesel. If your in a gas truck, you just get a hand shake and a pat on the back.
Conclusion,
Just luv them diesels. So in town I take the gas truck and out on the highway I almost always take the diesel for it's low end towing and stability.
click to enlarge 5.9 weights 1,000lbs
F350 gas with 3k pallet
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So how would this rate?
I do tow more than the average 1 ton diesel truck owner, but I'll admit that most of the miles on my 3500 are hauling around my lunch box. I am building a 35' gooseneck trailer so I can haul 2 power wagons to Iowa this year. It's pushing the max load that I feel comfortable with behind the 3500.
I wonder if I'd be better off to sell the 3500 and cut my losses, and buy one of the restored Mack B models with 673 Thermodyne and 5+4 transmissions for hauling my toys around on, and just get a small beater pickup for a parts runner/ power wagon buying rig (think power ram 50 size).Comment
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Jonas,
Did you buy the Ram new? It sure seems like you had a lemon or poor dealer support. The water is over the spillway now so, to measure your options consider these points:
The cost of buying/selling the trucks to get the "fleet" organized.
Is that cost a net loss?
How much fuel could you buy for that cost?
What are the current monthly repair costs vs. fuel costs of the replacement vehicles?
I made the same cost analysis when I sold my ferd 7.3 (approx. $600 a month in repairs) and bought my Ram 3500 cab/chassis ($0 a month in repairs over 5 years excepting brakes and wiper blades)
Make yourself a spread sheet and the answer will become clear.
MNComment
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Thanks Jonas for starting this conversation, and thanks to everyone who contributed. I' never had reason to own a diesel before and don't know nothing 'bout 'em.
Almost too much information to digest, but it sounds like it would be a good thing to still plan on replacing the 230 in my M37 with a 4bt.
Interesting FYI for everyone. Rick (my wife's cousin and my former USMC buddy) and his wife have a diesel Suburban (they have 4 kids too). It's identical to our Suburban except for the engine. Rick bought the diesel (about a year before we bought ours) to save on fuel. He's recently decided to sell because the savings aren't as large anymore (and his oldest is also going into college next year which will negate the necessity of a sixth seat). They bought a Honda Fit which seats 5.
His advice to me was to keep the Suburban for when we need to drive everyone around (at least until my wife gets her Mercedes R Class) and buy a small fuel efficient 5 seater for all the rest of the time.
It's humorous take my wife's Suburban somewhere to pick up materials, because it's more economical to run than the M37.
Now a question. I know this has been covered to an extent in other posts, but I'd love to get estimates on what a diesel re-power could (not would) cost. I'm aware that, for example, Charles estimate would be higher than someone elses (like JimmieDs) because he's doing it as a business and needs to eat, pay his mechanics and buy his wife nice things.
I have people that will help me do the re-power, but if the cost difference isn't too much I'll probably save up the extra dough and have it done by someone else because of time (and lack of desire I must confess). I know a diesel repower in a truck that initially cost me less than $4000 might be questionable, but I bought this truck as a keeper, not a collectible or on a whim. I intend to pass this truck on to one of my kids, or even a grandkid.Comment
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The answer to that last question has a lot of qualifiers based on circumstances. IF a person decides to 'Do it myself' and then ends up farming out bunches of stuff it can really add up. IF a person is a skilled welder and fabricator and has the equipment and understands a little more than the basics of automotive mechanical engineering and has access to materials and parts it will cost much less.
I had good fortune in many cases and recovered the cost of the stepvan by selling the hull plus sold some other parts. I happened to already have a pile of steel [all used, but good USA stuff] and lots of misc. truck stuff laying around. I already had the Millermatic wire welder, acetylene sets and misc. metal working tools, plus compressor and air tools. I got a lot of good breaks finding stuff. VERY IMPORTANT: mines a DRIVER rig that will get abused for years so no frills and not a lot of worry about looks. Based on that scenario if absolutely everything clicked [highly unlikely] and with those prerequisites you could possibly do it for around $5,500 to $6,000. BUT: mine is 2WD which is much less complicated than matching vintage 4X stuff.
That doesn't include some very necessary items like serious brake upgrade, plus maybe an exhaust brake, possibly water/meth injection for cooler EGT's while towing and many other drivetrain and genral upgrade$. More likely $9,000-$10,000 for a nice rig.
Charles does something entirely different. He returns your truck to you in better condition than new by a long shot! It is professionally done with a much higher level of fit and finish and is more throughly and correctly engineered. I've done stuff on mine that only some miles on the road will prove right or wrong: Charles already ran those laps! There is simply no comparison between my backyard cut, grind, pound weld-it job and the top quality expertise offered by Charlles. Looking at today's prices on inferior diesel 4X4 rigs the price of a Charles Talbert turnaround on an M-37 is more like a steal!Comment
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Matter of fact looking at one of Charles' jobs pretty well answers the question, "Why buy a diesel?" I'd rather have 1 of Charles' restos than half a dozen new diesels or 2 dozen new gassers......Comment
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Bobby Mike,
You stated that you want to pass this truck along to future generations. I plan to make my truck a family heirloom as well. This made my decision to have Charles do the job a no brainer. I will take on a second job to make it happen and will have to be patient due to budget issues, but I think his pricing is within reason for a professional installation.
This is, however, an abandonment of the way I was raised. If you want a job done right, do it yourself. That was the attitude in my dad's home when I was growing up. He was born the son of a farmer, whom are renown for being jacks of all trades. It was their way of life. If a building needed constructed, the family all got together and constructed a building. If the car broke down, they got out their tools and fixed the car. If they didn't have the right tool to fix the car, they made a tool. Nothing was ever hired out and I respect that. I appreciate the way in which I was raised and enjoy the total satisfaction of doing a job myself, but the world is a different place than it was when I was a kid and a much different place than when my dad was a kid. My point is, I'm finding it increasingly difficult to remain 100% self sufficient. My attitude when it comes to the diesel repower of my truck is that I will ultimately have a much nicer truck if I hire the professional, not to mention I am supporting the structure of today's economy. Up to this point, we have done all the work on Fenway ourselves(meaning me, my dad and my son)but bodywork and gas engines are within my skill set and I knew we could achieve the desired results. I'm not comfortable with trying to tackle an entire diesel repower, and it sounds like you are balking at the idea yourself. Wow, I'm sorry to have rambled. Think it through. Talk to Charles and talk to your friends.
Concerning cost, consider what you're getting for the money. Charles is installing brand new engines. There is a degree of risk vs. benefit that needs to be considered when trying to save $Last edited by Kevin Mienke; 09-25-2006, 09:50 AM.Comment
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Agreeing with Kevin, I put countless hours into fabricating steel frame mounts and also steel motor mounts to hold the Cummins 4BT where it needs to be. I spent many more hours on the NV4500 trans rear cross member. Well, I find that my right side engine mount inexplicably has a rib in precisely the wrong place so that I cannot connect a water sensor without pulling mount, cutting off rib and grinding, relocating rib and resintalling. That means hoisting up the engine again and beating up stuff that was all nice and shiny new and spending even more hours on one simple [??] part cutting, grinding, welding, etc. Also I have no idea if the 440 engine mount isolators will be enough to carry the load and also properly insulate against vibration [that 4BT's are famous for!]. I'll find out if it was a colossal waste of time when I finally drive it.
On the trans crossmember I fabbed it with all the precision I could muster. It doesn't use original NV mounts, but rather some 360 motor mounts. I measured, measured again, mocked up, measured again, cut and trimmed, re-fitted and measured again, and finally drilled as needed and bolted in place. Now I just can't imagine why that one motor mount on one side of trans crossmember is cocked slightly sideways!??? What's up with that!!!? So, take it apart and re-do a bunch of stuff, again with it all brand shiny new stuff getting trashed in the process. Also I have absolutely no idea as to whether the engine mounts will properly isolate vibration and secure tailshaft. Guess I'll find out.
It will work, and it will get done somehow, but I'm beyond physically and mentally worn out and lost my sense of humor weeks ago. It's supposed to be fun, right? Ya gotta tally in the enormous aggravation factor and the drain on your personal natural resources: it will take all you have, believe me.
If you had the 3 lbs. sledge single jack poised in the air, and your thumb sitting there on the anvil, how much cash is it worth right now to not let that hammer fall and use somebody else's thumb instead? Something to think about....Comment
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Jimmie,
I like that last line. Still chuckling.
Bobby Mike,
I don't mean to discourage getting quotes or doing the job yourself. I respect Jimmies approach to his project and admire his "stick with it" attitude. There are many qualified mechanics with an attention for detail that are capable of handling the job. It just seems to me that Charles dedication to the M-37 rebuild is proven and the risks are minimized to nil with a brand new power plant and ample aptitude on installation.Comment
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I appreciate both views. Many people "do" woodworking. The people who hire me to make furniture for them "do" other things (and make lots of money). I'm sure many of them could, with enough time and money, make a nice bench. They would also get a lot of satisfaction from doing it. They decide to buy one from me because it's what I do and I do it well. There's nothing wrong with admitting someone else can do something better than you can. I have concluded awhile ago that while I can "do" mechanical things, it's not my favorite thing. If I can't find someone who can help me (and someone who "does" mechanical stuff as well as I can "do" woodworking) than having someone like Charles do it would be a no-brainer. My problem is deciding what I want to do. DIY or hire out. I'm leaning towards the latter (the write-up of the Timkin truck was helpful in that regard).
I also have a shop to build and a house to renovate, which I don't want to hire out because I'm too picky about stuff I know how to do.Comment
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Hmmmm,
The Cummins instal in my M37 was around $7K... I say "around" because there are couple of small parts that I didn't bother to document the cost on (like the scrap metal that I used to fabricate the motor mounts from), and some things that I would have done reqardless of converting to diesel (such as the electric wipers...). I can knock the price down if I were to do it all over again since I have much better connections for obtaining some of the higher cost items (transmission/flywheel adapter) and since I have "been there, done that"...
I did get Charles to set up my 4.49 gears and lockers, but the rest of the conversion was done in my own back yard using a "previously enjoyed" engine and transmission...
Before you convert a truck (or buy a new one), you really need to think long and hard about how you will use your rig...Comment
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4.49's?
The price on the 4bt's keeps going up. In the last transportation auction the only P30 van on the west coast went for $2750. These previously enjoyed engines are going to get harder to find at a reasonable price. I hope next months auction is better.Comment
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