My truck would it be worth it?

[gator4x4]

http://gator4x4.com/photosets/hellrun/DSC00588


Hi Ive been reading some of these posts on the 4bt cummins,and I was wondering if doing the swap would be worth it.

1 How much roughly would it cost to do ?
2 How hard would it be to install in a 1/2 ton?
3 How many parts of my drive line would fail ?
4 How much mpg could I get?
5 what gearing would I have to run?
6 what does the 4bt weigh wet?

I use my truck as a mule dd ,offroading and towing sometimes 8000+ pounds .
thanks

[JimmieD]

http://gator4x4.com/photosets/hellrun/DSC00588


Hi Ive been reading some of these posts on the 4bt cummins,and I was wondering if doing the swap would be worth it.

1 How much roughly would it cost to do ?
2 How hard would it be to install in a 1/2 ton?
3 How many parts of my drive line would fail ?
4 How much mpg could I get?
5 what gearing would I have to run?
6 what does the 4bt weigh wet?

I use my truck as a mule dd ,offroading and towing sometimes 8000+ pounds .
thanks

1] Depends entirely on what parts you choose and how/where you source them. It can cost as much as $7,000 to $8,000 for a nice conversion, doing it yourself. Even getting parts really cheap you're looking at a minimum of $4,000 overall and that's budgeting VERY tight!

2] This again depends on the components you choose. Many Dodge Cummins Turbo Diesel parts can be used. You will probably have to fabricate engine mounts, tranny mount, exhaust, and possibly modify the firewall some. It's far more complicated than a traditional engine swap. You need strong mechanical experience and fabrication skills and the right tools. An A/C buzzbox/cheapo MIG and a set of wrenches won't do it.

3] Depends on what parts you can use in the conversion. One of the main reasons for doing this swap is to build a long lasting and reliable vehicle. To cheap out on components during the swap pretty much defeats the purpose. Not to sound harsh but it's one of those deals where if you can't really afford to ante up then don't plan to get in the game, you'll only be disappointed!

4] Once again, depends on the parts you use, and also how you drive it. A well planned conversion can get you in the neighborhood of 30mpg. A lead foot will seriously reduce that figure.

5] That depends on your personal needs, but from 4.1 to 4.89 is commonly used, others go lower for 4WD. 4.1 should be a good gear for cruising and moderate towing if you use a 5 speed w/ O'drive.

6] 750-800 lbs.

You also have to budget a very large block of dedicated time.

[gator4x4]

oky so if I spent 6000 on the swap would it be feasable to do a good swap ,doing the swap myself?
Ive seen ebay motors ranging from 1000+ what should I steer clear of and what should look for in a prospective motor?

[slozukimc]

1/2 ton and a Cummins????

oky so if I spent 6000 on the swap would it be feasable to do a good swap ,doing the swap myself?
Ive seen ebay motors ranging from 1000+ what should I steer clear of and what should look for in a prospective motor?

Not to rain on your parade but I can't see the 1/2 ton frame and/or driveline components lasting very long towing 8000# with the Cummins torque.

Mike

[JimmieD]

I think there's no physical difference between a 1/2 ton frame and a 1 ton frame, just different components attached. There's a difference in metallurgy through the years, with older being better in my experience.

I think you should budget $6000, but you may come out MUCH cheaper. Problem is obvious: you can get in a whole lot of trouble and disappointment by budgetting less than the actual cost of project! That said, I like the idea of buying a wrecked truck and pulling the parts, re-selling what you don't need. There's a ready market for any Cummins parts or engines.

First most important consideration: MAKE SURE YOUR ENGINE HAS THE CPL DATA PLATE ATTACHED! This is an aluminum plate attached to the driver's side of timing gear case showing all engine details. You can't get the right parts for your engine without it. Also many of these engines were used in other than on road vehicles so they may be unsuitable. As mentioned previously several 4BT's have been stolen of late and that complicates things, so you need that CPL plate.

The baby Cummins weighs in at 750-800 lbs. which puts a strain on stock [old] 1/2 ton springs. I bought brand new from Eaton Detroit Spring and used 1,500 lbs springs instead of stock 1,250 lbs [per side]. Now that mine's installed I see why most guys use power steering, yipes! Forget about Laguna Seca... Speaking of steering you'll need to shove the engine over toward passenger side about 1" to 1-1/2" [More like 1 3/4" for power steering] to allow clearance between steering box and Dodge/Cummins starter. I forgot this and ended up having to shim up the driver side engine mount, hope it works.

You'll need at least Spicer 1350 u-joints, with 1410's preferred. I used a Dana 60 rear, and don't know how well your front Dana 44 can handle the Cummins torque. Stock the engine only puts out 105-120 hp and maybe 300 ft lbs torque, but this is almost full torque off idle, instead of up the rpm band like a gasser. That means it's more like having 450-500 ft lbs for the punishment it puts on the drivetrain at starts and low speeds.

You shouldn't weld or flame cut any part of the frame on a Dodge so that has to be considered with engine mounts. I fabricated steel boxes that fit inside frame channel, cut rivets and removed old engine mounts, and fabricated engine-mounted mounts to fit in boxes with 440 rubber isolators. We'll see if they're enough to do the job.

[JimmieD]

Any engine used in a delivery van like Frito Lay etc. has detailed service record. You should be able to get these through the service dept. of the company I'd think, if they haven't purged them yet.

A 4BT is what's often found in these vans and other applications, but if available the 4BTA is preferred. The BTA has an aftercoler which helps cool EGT's [Exhaust Gas Temperatures] and allows more agressive fuel settings on the Bosch injection pump, therefore about 15 more horsepower stock. That aftercooler also allows you to adjust up the pump even more for stronger performance. Marine engines are powerful but unsuitable as-is, unless you de-fuel the engine. In a vehicle you don't have the unlimited water cooling, so EGT's will melt pistons in a few seconds under hard acceleration!

Injection pumps are quite expensive, from $800 to $2,000, so I wouldn't buy an engine that "Only needs a pump..." or "Has some fuel problems..." etc.

[gator4x4]

thanks
from what Ive read alot of older 3/4 ton trucks used front dana 44 hds which where 6 lug bolt pattern only differnce between 1/2 ton trucks.
89 -3/4 ton diesels had the dana 44 front axles .
what I mean 6000 thousand is have set budget if you can go below that great.My thought would be that I could rebuild my truck to be alot better possible cheaper than a newer truck?

[JimmieD]

thanks
from what Ive read alot of older 3/4 ton trucks used front dana 44 hds which where 6 lug bolt pattern only differnce between 1/2 ton trucks.
89 -3/4 ton diesels had the dana 44 front axles .
what I mean 6000 thousand is have set budget if you can go below that great.My thought would be that I could rebuild my truck to be alot better possible cheaper than a newer truck?

I didn't know the '89 used a D44! hmmm..... One problem is HOW it's driven. I'm new to this, too, and was surprised to read that the diesel with manual trans is operated entirely different than a gasser. I've spent decades getting my clutch release off of a standing start to a point of perfection. Forget it with a diesel! I haven't tried it yet [truck MAY be running for the 1st time today!!!] but from what is described you gradually release clutch with NO FUEL FEED applied, then when it starts to roll give it fuel. This is only possible because of a diesel's bottom end torque off idle. That should make a huge difference on drivetrain longevity!

My comments regarding budgeting are from a very narrow perspective: my own! ha haha. That is, I need to build one truck, NOW, and have it up and running ASAP. Had I more time I could have budgeted according to income or picking up a part cheap when it becomes available, ho-hum, no hurry. If you can take your time to amass all needed parts and really search out the good deals it's amazing what shows up for skinny $$$$. Assemble parts as needed and then go for the gold!

I set my mind to build this one truck as my primary vehicle for the long haul. To spell it out, until I'm dead and gone! I am not enamored of the fancy and often silly bells and whistles on modern vehicles. These old trucks are GREAT with their minimal creature comforts and far less likely to get disastered at a complex electronic failure. I think we're far ahead of the game rebuilding a fine old Dodge truck instead of plunking down 5-6 TIMES the bucks for a shiny pile of headaches....?

[gator4x4]

I think we're far ahead of the game rebuilding a fine old Dodge truck instead of plunking down 5-6 TIMES the bucks for a shiny pile of headaches....?[/quote]

Yeah the new Dodges are nice ,but you will spend 30-45 thousand on a new truck that I would be suprised if it lasted 5yrs .
my old truck has outlasted alot of new trucks and if I could get good mpgs out of it would awsome.:)

[MoparNorm]

sssh! don't tell my "new" Dodge that it's 5 years old this month! Not to worry, it still has 50,000 miles of warantee left. ha!ha!
I'm with Jim on the concept...= )
As for new tech, I'm really, really impressed so far with my Dana 80 axles and rear 14" disc brakes.

Now if this truck ever does die, that rear axle will work sweet under my '64 Power Wagon....= )

[gator4x4]

I had a 2001 qc 4x4 diesel dodge called it my country caddy:)sold it to pay for a house project.
they are nice ride nice any trip in one is very comfertable ,but they have so much plastic on the outside of the vehicle that will fade crack ect and you have to earn a degree in computers to work on them .
I wouldnt mind owning another one ,but you have drop around 16000$ on one and theres no telling who owned it what could be wrong with it .

[Keith in CO]

CTD front axles

89 -3/4 ton diesels had the dana 44 front axles.

'89 - '93 Dodge 3/4 ton (W250) trucks with the 6BT CTD's used Dana 60 or 61 front axles. Only the 3/4 ton gassers used the Dana 44s.

As to the weight of the 4BT on a Dana 44, I note that IH used D44s on '75-'80 Scouts with 345cid engines which weigh about 725#.