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**mcinfantry** · 05-29-2007, 07:42 PM

mpg? i think 25 to 30 is attainable. the only issue i see is initial cost.

im working on sound deadening on the wc-53 as we speak. so i dont have that 100% solved yet.

**HWooldridge** · 05-29-2007, 09:15 PM

The complete conversion that Charles Talbert offers seems to be a good combination of features. Of course, doing it yourself would be cheaper from a labor perspective but the items he adds/changes are the right choices - so the 4BT replacement, OD trans and 4.89 gears are the first things that come to my mind for a daily driver in most parts of the country.

For the past 10 years, I have lived on a farm-to-market road where I could drive to work at 45 mph the whole way so I'd be happy with a fresh, stock 230 and 4.89's but I can get by with the stock axles. One of these days, I'll rebuild the engine properly - the previous owner did a poor job and it shows.

I think good diesel sound deadening can be added to the underside of the cab and the firewall. You could also go inside the doors and glue something to the outer skins. The M37 will never be dead quiet because of the soft top but I believe it could be dampened a lot. It might also help to run the exhaust up the side similar to a fording kit so some of the exhaust noise goes upward.

I also think a later Dodge like a W300 would be a good choice - provides a more civilian perspective to begin with.

**Gordon Maney** · 05-29-2007, 09:33 PM

Originally posted by HWooldridge View Post

The complete conversion that Charles Talbert offers seems to be a good combination of features. Of course, doing it yourself would be cheaper from a labor perspective but the items he adds/changes are the right choices - so the 4BT replacement, OD trans and 4.89 gears are the first things that come to my mind for a daily driver in most parts of the country.

For the past 10 years, I have lived on a farm-to-market road where I could drive to work at 45 mph the whole way so I'd be happy with a fresh, stock 230 and 4.89's but I can get by with the stock axles. One of these days, I'll rebuild the engine properly - the previous owner did a poor job and it shows.

I think good diesel sound deadening can be added to the underside of the cab and the firewall. You could also go inside the doors and glue something to the outer skins. The M37 will never be dead quiet because of the soft top but I believe it could be dampened a lot. It might also help to run the exhaust up the side similar to a fording kit so some of the exhaust noise goes upward.

I also think a later Dodge like a W300 would be a good choice - provides a more civilian perspective to begin with.

Would you still use the 4BT in the W300?

**mcinfantry** · 05-29-2007, 09:39 PM

i never tried to get more hp/tq from mine in my 5/4 m715. it hauled all i could ask in the bed, and never had a problem with it. i tried to flat tow another m715 and wasnt happy with it (never pulled the d-shafts or even checked the brakes). i never tried to find out where the problem was. i ended up selling the 715 before i ever pulled anything else.

i would say 4bt would be good for any 1/2 ton to 1 ton with carried loads, and towing <6000 range. now i will add that iirc, 16000gvwr was for a cpl858 4bt

im runnig 4.88 gears in the wc, but it isnt on the road just yet. ill be able to compare it to a chevy blazer with slightly better than stock sound deadening(and a 4bt)

**Ugg013** · 05-30-2007, 07:46 AM

Hi Gordon:

GL always offers the 6.2 GM diesels in crates. What condition they are is unknown. Will they fit in a M37/PW/WC? Unkown. Just another direction to look. Diesels are the future. I'm tryin to convince the wife now. her little truck crossed the 150K mark, and that's mostly heavy traffic mileage. Like most, when she thinks diesel, she thinks of the big rigs and the smell & noise. Our deuce is no help with that thought, but it doesn't even have a muffler. HA!

So Gordon, is this busy work to keep ya occupied during the interim? Charles Talbert has already done extensive research/work in this direction as ya already probably know, and Charles IS known for his quality work/knowledge. I believe he already has much info about this at his site, so he'd be the Go To guy for info (that's not meaning to dismiss anybody elses imput).

Later
Ugg

**MoparNorm** · 05-30-2007, 01:03 PM

Ugg those 6.2's are in crates for a reason, but they really should be in landfills........
The 4bt is adequate, but for practical reasons I'd want a ISB version, much smoother and very quiet compared to the earlier versions.
Gordon certainly didn't mean to discount Charles' work, just to explore new possibilties. Charles work is top notch and if there becomes a new technology or motor option, he'd still be the one in my book, to perform the work.
The 2.8 Detroit Diesel gets 34 mpg in vehicles under 5,000 lbs, with gearing in the 4:10 range.
The new Cummins 4.0 will get better than that and as a V-6 it will fit in applications where even the 4bt is too long, but it may be too wide for older Dodge Military rigs. I do not have size specs on it yet.

A late 90's to pre IFS axle Dakota may be a candidate for a small diesel, but limiting choices to Dodges is narrowed by the poor current crop of Dodge offerings.

When it comes to a tad more creature comfort than the M37 affords, the Sweptline, Power Giant and Town Wagon line offers a few trucks with potential for a "modern" street ride while still maintaining a rugged capability off road. There are several trucks running 6bts but the weight of the 6bt makes that choice borderline. I'd love to see one of those trucks mentioned, with the new Cummins 4.0, quiet, powerful, great fuel economy, I have no idea what is involved however to maintain the new fuel/engine management systems without all the sensors and toys that come with the computer controls.

**mcinfantry** · 05-30-2007, 01:20 PM

the 4.5l 4cyl is computer controlled. keep that in mind.

**MoparNorm** · 05-30-2007, 01:31 PM

Originally posted by Ugg013 View Post

... Diesels are the future. I'm tryin to convince the wife now. her little truck crossed the 150K mark, and that's mostly heavy traffic mileage. Like most, when she thinks diesel, she thinks of the big rigs and the smell & noise. Our deuce is no help with that thought, but it doesn't even have a muffler. HA!
Later
Ugg

Ugg, just set it up to have her stand next to a VW TDI, Chevy or GMC Duramax, Jeep Liberty CRD or Grand Cherokee CRD with the Bluetec diesel. But don't tell her it's a diesel until she says "it's nice" then spring it on her that it's a diesel and it gets mpg in the 30's.....= )

**HWooldridge** · 05-30-2007, 06:07 PM

Originally posted by Gordon Maney View Post

Would you still use the 4BT in the W300?

I believe so - it might take some grey matter to work out final drive ratios but the engine should be a good match. Do you think it's too small?

**MoparNorm** · 05-30-2007, 06:18 PM

Yes.
It might move it OK on the road, the motor is rated at over the GVW of the 300, but it'd be marginal in certain off-road conditions.
However I could be persuaded otherwise....= )

**mcinfantry** · 05-30-2007, 06:33 PM

i completely disagree. it will be more than adequate offroad, it may be lacking on-road towing under certain conditions.

**MoparNorm** · 05-30-2007, 06:45 PM

I suppose one man's definition of off-road is different than another man's. From what I've seen of the 4BT it's adequate on the hi-way, except maybe under a load on a long grade?
But the off-roading that I do requires a LOT more torque than the 4BT can dish out to move a 6,000+ lb vehicle.
It's great for 1/2 and 3/4 ton rigs and maybe a 1 ton dirt road runner, but I'd need to see one in action before I agree.
I'd like to see a little more torque out of it before it went behind a 1 ton. Are there hop up parts for it and will the motor live with them?

**mcinfantry** · 05-30-2007, 06:52 PM

a 4bt puts out 200ftlbs of tq at 1000rpm. name any gas motor anywhere that produces a useable 200ftlbs at 1000.

i again refer anyone to this video where i was over 7000lbs wet weight. this is second gear, low range. nv4500, np205 and 4.56 gears pushing 38.5" tires.

http://homepage.mac.com/ltalessi/iMovieTheater124.html

non-quicktime
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3vL9RGJ3ek

what do you see as missing, or where do you see the power level lacking?

i once tried to uproot some shrubs and had the 715 on pavement in 1st, low range, front and rear axles locked and i was on dry asphalt and could spin all four tires almost at idle. and i wasnt riding the clutch.

iirc curb weight was 6300lbs on the 715. thats 1-ton to me.

ive never heard of anyone, anywhere looking for off-road performance increases. its always been on-road specific power increases.

give me a for instance for the certain offroad conditions you mention, and ill try and see if i ever experianced any similar ones.

**MoparNorm** · 05-30-2007, 07:11 PM

That's pretty cool!
A stock 4.2 in line six Jeep puts out 240 lbs of torque @ 3,000 rpm, 205 off idle. Mine puts out 350 lbs @ 2500 rpm, 250 off idle, that's so so for a Jeep CJ, I'd like more for a 1 ton.
Funny that you posted ... "ive never heard of anyone, anywhere looking for off-road performance increases. its always been on-road specific power increases."
You need to come on out to SoCal and see what we do out here, it's all about off-road performance, on road performance from non-diesels is pretty much illegal. We're looking for low rpm grunt, even with the CJ's. I suppose it's same with the boys from Texas, Colorado and New Mexico. In Moab, they're putting up some pretty big numbers, but they are doing it with gassers. In our western rocks you need to putt at low rpm and still move over obstacles. 1 mph is sometimes too fast, but we still need torque.
Not much mud out here and too much work to clean up properly, but it is fun.....
Have pictures of the install in the 715?

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