Ramcharger Diesel conversion

[frankyb]

I have a 76 Ramcharger with a 400/727B.
It has 3/4 ton axles, Dana 44/60 8 lug
1 ton springs

I was thinking of making this my daily driver but it's not great on gas with the 400. It runs perfect though...

I'm thinking about converting it to diesel. I know a 6bt would fit as the Ramcharger front end is the same as the lifestyle pickups. Would a 4bt be better though? I need it to keep up with traffic, have some fun and be a decent commuter.

Anyone know a shop that could do the swap? I understand Charles Talbert has a 2 year waiting list... The conversion is beyond my abilities.

Any advice appreciated.

-FrankyB

[MoparNorm]

JimmieD, did it with no prior diesel experience, from tips over the Internet, from a few folks that you might know, and no, don't even think about asking....= )
You can run a 4BT as is, but a 6BT will need a heavier front suspension underneath.
The 4BT is just under 700lbs, the 6BT is just under 1300lbs.

The 4BT is a strong power plant, noisy and a with a tad bit of vibration. The 6BT is a bit smoother, and the newer you get, the quieter and more powerful it is, albeit with less fuel economy.

[JimmieD]

Hmmmm.....cogitating here, FrankyB. The swaps are quite involved as you know. But possibly, maybe, I could help you out, maybe.

I wouldn't hesitate for a moment to go 4BT, plenty of power. Couple of days ago I was headed back home through the mountains in my 5,600+ lbs Dodge 2X4. Mr. 90's Chevy "I wish I had a real truck' got on my bumper and ticked me off. I've upgraded my old suspension with sway bars, heavy duty springs, good tires etc. & have been driving it for 30 years, and know the road. Is a picture forming?

Within a mile he was breathing hard, within 2 miles going nuts to keep up, and at 3 miles I knew where there was this oh, so special left turn: blind apex, closing radius with a drop, the toughest of all. I dove in full on, on the outside and then cut deep off the apex to drift the rear a little left on the inside and came out the bottom end cutting the line, twitched the wheel to straighten out and nailed it down to the boards, flat cookin' and gone, gone, gone! Watching in rearview at the same time, I wish I had a camera.

After that one he backed off a whole bunch haha, then I took him for a slow walk on a double-yellow line section haha. I heated it up again at the end [hey, this guy had dogged my tail for several miles, paybacks] right where it goes to a dotted centerline and held him til just about the end, then backed off. What he probably didn't know about was that tight right at the end of the straight, especially hard with me squeezing the centerline. I just knew he'd pass there. See ya, Bunkie... He just about rolled it much to my amusement.

I have never experienced any sort of unpleasant lack of power in any way, and I like to DRIVE! '90 4BT, NV4500, Dana 60HD, 4.1 gears, 29.5" 285-16 tires, '67 Town Wagon now about 1 ton. Driven by nutcase.

[frankyb]

Hey JimmyD,

How is your Dana 60HD different from a regular Dana 60? I have the regular 8 lug Dana 60 in rear with 4.10's.

I have an 8 lug Dana 44 front w/disks up front (4.09), would that be ok for a 4BT? All driveshafts have the 1350's U's... oh, my t-case is an NP203 with a new chain that I put in.

Since the Ramcharger has such a short wheelbase, the lighter 4BT might be better. After reading your post I think I'd be ok with the 4BT. I wonder what the weight diff would be against the big block already in there?

-FrankyB

[MoparNorm]

Jim,
Is that the apex I taught you.....in my road racing cab/chassis......? = )

[JimmieD]

Near identical weight, depending on transmission. The NV4500 is hefty, weighing in at 200 lbs nekked, add some for adapter, clutch/p-plate & bellhousing. The 4Bt comes in about 750, same-same as a big block. So it somewhat depends on what trans, too.

Dana 60HD has additional webbing cast in around 'pumpkin' area, and has full-float axles. Lots of guys using a front D44 with a 4BT, and Dodge overdrives the rear into the front with about . 01 higher rearend ratio than front axle. Of course it depends on how you're going to use it. Some guys can tear up a D80!

I happen to use 1410 Spicer joints, but 1350's should be fine with a 4BT, especially if you are going auto trans.

I don't see any reason a 203 wouldn't be fine, they hold up to 300 hp bigblocks! The 727B will cushion the effects through torque converter. For diesel use you would probably want a stronger torque converter because diesel produces almost full torque right off idle. A bigblock converter has the stall speed sorta high, by maybe 500+ rpm's, and diesels have a much narrower power band, say 900-2,500 rpm. A shift kit would be good too. Some don't understand that with Mopars, a shift kit is easier on the tranny, not harder as some think. You'll want a HD tranny cooler, good engine/tranny mounts and possibly some extra sound deadening. You've got plenty of radiator for a 4BT already.

If you use an auction purchased stepvan you can re-use the exhaust, huge 32 gal fuel tank [but it hangs down pretty low] or clean out your old tank, and re-use the larger diesel fuel lines. Injection requires a return line to tank. If you get a stepvan at auction DO NOT get rid of the Hydroboost brake booster! Diesels have no vacuum, so stock Dodge power brakes & booster won't work without auxiliary vacuum pump or a hydroboost. Most stepvans had power steering so keep that pump too.

[frankyb]

Cummins Ramcharger

I already put in a HD tranny cooler. You think I can stick with my 727B? I put a shift kit in her last year. Just change the torque converter? Thre's no verdrive though... It's tough with the rear gears. I could change to 3.55's but that's a few hundred bucks for the gears... What is ideal for mostly street, highway and rural use with the 4BT? Would the NV4500 (4 spd manual?) be better than my 727B? Is there a third choice? I like automatic... I have enough trucks with the 4 speed...

I have a 45 gallon fuel tank in the unit already... I hope I can just clean it out and reuse it. Will my A/C, factory tach and electrical be the same?

Wanna help? ... haha, 50% kidding!!

[JimmieD]

Jim,
Is that the apex I taught you.....in my road racing cab/chassis......? = )

Nope, different technique, Norm, that I learned some 41 years ago. The one you taught me was different, where I sit in the passenger seat digging my fingernails and fingers clear through the dash padding 'til I was denting the metal, near loading my drawers and whizzing my undies bug-eyed screaming "Holy SH......" at the top of my lungs just before I blew chunks out the passener side window!

Nice technique though. I'll try it someday if I ever get another Porsche RSK/RO80 and start drinking heavy again. Still don't know how you manage to do it stone cold sober, hunnh!? :~ )

[JimmieD]

I already put in a HD tranny cooler. You think I can stick with my 727B? I put a shift kit in her last year. Just change the torque converter? Thre's no verdrive though... It's tough with the rear gears. I could change to 3.55's but that's a few hundred bucks for the gears... What is ideal for mostly street, highway and rural use with the 4BT? Would the NV4500 (4 spd manual?) be better than my 727B? Is there a third choice? I like automatic... I have enough trucks with the 4 speed...

I have a 45 gallon fuel tank in the unit already... I hope I can just clean it out and reuse it. Will my A/C, factory tach and electrical be the same?

Wanna help? ... haha, 50% kidding!!

4.1 gears are going to limit you to about 60 flat out, unless you change the injection pump governor spring to a BOSCH # [not Cummins #] 1-464-650-366
injection pump governor spring for 3,200 rpm max, opposed to stock 2,500-2,700 spring. 4,000 rpm spring also available but not recommended, defuels bottom-end power/torque and takes the engine up too tight for long life. I'm going to install my '366' spring very soon, after I swap out my turbo's compressor side for an HTT Stage II HY35 that I have.

Exhaust turbine side of turbo powers compressor wheel. Stock 4BT usually has a 16cm2 exhaust housing, good size! Exhaust housing, compressor housing and compressor wheel can be swapped out to change the 'map' [compressed air forced induction curve] on the turbo, for more bottom, more top, more in the middle, moderate to huge power in combination with fuel adjustment fiddling. Interestingly, no impact whatsoever on fuel mileage long as you keep your foot out of it, but.....who can?

Tranny: hmmm, really stout trans there! Problem is for real world freeway driving I'd say you need o'drive. Mine with 4.1 gears & a standard trans NV4500 5 speed can roll up well past 80 mph with stock governor spring, possibly pushing 100 with the '366' spring. I'm .78 o'drive.

A-518 [46RH smallblock gasser] trans would probably handle a 4BT with the right converter. Next step is A-618 [47RH for 6BT diesel] and it's the one if you can $wing it. .74 o'drive, stout, and torque converter range is diesel mapped for strong bottom end. Stout 6BT's can eat them up but even a strong 4Bt shouldn't faze it. Prices vary, but blown 47RH/A-618 core trannies are reasonable, good shape used are pricey, and questionable: did he pound the daylights out of it and wants to dump it before it scatters? Good used available, not cheap.

Regardless, if I wanted an automatic I'd go 47RH/A-618, really nice tranny to me and then you've got your perfect gears. That's what Norm runs in his monster 6BT wonder wagon I think. In my diesel opinion, ALL AUTOS NEED AUXILIARY TRANS COOLER, ALL!

You would at the least need to purchase engine, fabricate front motor mounts [frame] plus use different isolators, buy Cummins adapter plate [to match trans bell], tranny, possible torque converter upgrade, trans cooler, modify or swap shifter/column [floor mount B&M Mega Shifter is reasonable & fits fine] use your trans crossmember moved & modified, Tom Wood's Custom Driveshaft [super good, very reasonable], hack wiring loom [diesel only needs start circuit & ignition 'ON' hot for fuel solenoid], new fuel lines, fuel filters, clean tank and modify for fuel return line, 3" [4" preferred] full exhaust and 'downpipe' that connects manifold to exhaust pipe, etc. Additional gauges mandatory: Turbo Boost, Pyrometer [senses destructive heat], plus electronic tach & sender [somewhat complicated], probably a new temp gauge or sender, most 4BT's use GM type ohms sender. I discovered a way to use stock speedo with either 47RH/A618 or NV4500 trans.

Factory A/c can work using Cummins 6BT parts like compressor, but probably have to change refrigerant type and hoses. I've never fooled with that particular A/C system but not all that complicated.

Actually I do 'want' to help, but don't know if I'm currently able despite willingness! Norm can explain better when you talk to him than I can here. So, I'm at least 60% willing, but.......?

Don't know if that answers all, if not holler and I'll give it a try.

[JimmieD]

Diesel Tachometer:

Problem is, very few 4BT came with a factory provision for tachometer.

However, 6BT's tach in the Dodge Ram/Cummins will work. Other options are that most 4BT use a GM alternator that just happens to have a provison for an electronic tach pickup. The GM tach setup often bounces some at real low rpms, usually due to the alternator design, this can be overcome by a fairly simple internal parts change in alternator.

A 6BT may have either of 2 tach senders as I understand it: one picks up from a Hall Effect sensor/sender embedded in crankshaft front pulley, another picks up from a sender in flywheel. No flywheel, no sender if automatic trans.

6BT crank pulley can bolt right onto 4BT crank pulley, no problems, if a spacer is added. This also expands options, because now you can use that extra drive pulley to power v-belt power auxiliaries, like a vacuum pump. No vacuum on a 4BT & tranny kickdown won't work without a vacuum pump, so ya need one anyway! As a bonus this extra pulley can now power the A/C compressor.

Lots of guys using the alternator tach, but given my druthers I'd much prefer the 6BT pulley setup. This can also give you a harmonic balancer, missing on most 4BT's, and this engine likes to shake. That's a whole bunch of plusses for a little bit of hassles fabbing it all up.

These many areas of change should give a better idea how large a job it is to 'just stuff a 4BT in'. Nope, it doesn't work that way. Skills, tools, fab experience, thorough understanding of new diesel systems, lots of parts, welding, dialing in etc. all add up to a major project by any reckoning. I've been twisting wrenches and fabricating since maybe 1960 and still had some challenges, several, along the way to my own swap. Anybody that says, "Aw, it's easy, I did it in no time, no sweat, man..." is either an outright liar or else they built a real pile of junk, usually both! It's bare knuckles, 9 full rounds and no 'Cut & Corner' man to help.

[MoparNorm]

Wonder Wagon is running a 47RE and 4:10's behind the 6BT, top speed over 100.
They're should be a pile of Dodge/Cummins 47RE's in salvage yards as folks don't like them too much behind the Cummins 6, after they add a tuner chip, exhaust amd other toys, but behind a 4BT it should last forever. Really the only issue with the 47RE is heat buildup in the converter, the answer is an aftermarket converter, real easy to do with the trans out already......

[JimmieD]

Wonder Wagon is running a 47RE and 4:10's behind the 6BT, top speed over 100.
They're should be a pile of Dodge/Cummins 47RE's in salvage yards as folks don't like them too much behind the Cummins 6, after they add a tuner chip, exhaust amd other toys, but behind a 4BT it should last forever. Really the only issue with the 47RE is heat buildup in the converter, the answer is an aftermarket converter, real easy to do with the trans out already......

1 other known problem area: OWNERS! "Scuse me, buddy, there wringing your hands over that melted tranny: ever consider CHANGING FLUID EVERY 6 TO 9 MONTHS??!!!!" Fer pity's sake.....there should be a screening process in force for potential Mopar owners: no pass, no Mopar, proceed to the 'Also Ran' [for a while, weakly, but rarely weekly] line.

[frankyb]

Ramcharger >> conversion to diesel

Thanks for all the advice on converting to diesel. Buying a step van seems like the way to go in getting a 4BT. Especially if I could use the NV 4500. That's a 5 speed manual right? I heard the GM version (found in the stepvan?) is better than the Dodge version. Is that true? I also like your suggestion of the 618. If it's that much easier to stick with the 4500 I'd do it. I just prefer an auto is all.

What's the difference to Norm's 47RE and the 47RH? Are they both the 618? Is one a 5 spd the other a 6 spd? Which is stronger?

If I had space at my house I'd consider this swap myself... not sure how I'd do though!!

Whadya think something like this would cost if I had someone either do it or help me do it?

[JimmieD]

Thanks for all the advice on converting to diesel. Buying a step van seems like the way to go in getting a 4BT. Especially if I could use the NV 4500. That's a 5 speed manual right? I heard the GM version (found in the stepvan?) is better than the Dodge version. Is that true? I also like your suggestion of the 618. If it's that much easier to stick with the 4500 I'd do it. I just prefer an auto is all.

What's the difference to Norm's 47RE and the 47RH? Are they both the 618? Is one a 5 spd the other a 6 spd? Which is stronger?

If I had space at my house I'd consider this swap myself... not sure how I'd do though!!

Whadya think something like this would cost if I had someone either do it or help me do it?

Hi, Franky, sent you a couple of e-mails, give me a holler if possible?

Cost is real difficult to sort out. I had quite an assortment of misc. truck parts, a Dodge D-200 parts truck, scrap steel etc. and got my stepvan cheap. Got my trans and several parts cheap/cheap. Sold leftover van whole, minus engine, trans, fuel tank & lines at a very good price. I'd say my example doesn't happen often so innaccurate.

We talked about this in another thread and if everything is at market price: $4,000 to $7,000 depending on install. In some cases like mine it can be done for maybe $2,500-3,000, but that's real rare. Too many variables to quote a solid price, but figure $2,500 - $7,000 with all kinds of 'what if' involved. That was just for parts! Additional costs for an installer etc. E-mail me for more info?

Norm can give the rundown on A-618's. Every time I figure it out I get confused again hah! I think the 47RH is the hot ticket, not absolutely sure. Remember though a 4BT even 'turned up' puts out a lot less torque than a 6BT bad dog, so strees on tranny is far less.

[JimmieD]

I missed & misread part of your post. RE: NV4500, the GM is a puny second cousin to the Dodge NV4500. Dodge is much beefier input shaft etc. but Chevy version can be upgraded to Dodge specs. With a stock 4BT I think either version would be okay, but for a performance 4BT or stock 6BT no doubt the Dodge is the way to go, no question! All NV4500's require a 'fix' on 5th gear, most Dodges already repaired by a warranty recall. Any can be 'fixed' if not already done.

Best to plan on large tranny cooler with any auto, and a diesel rated torque converter. Gasser torque converters lock up too late to use as is successfully, where diesel locks up much earlier at low rpm diesel torque range.