Fuel pressure "fix" in 2001 CTD

[Doc Dave]

A few years ago, my 2001 had the lift pump start to fail just before the warranty ran out. The Dodge dealer installed an "in the tank" lift pump, like they used on the 3rd gen (and later?) trucks. My truck has ran fine since then with this pump, although I have not yet done too much heavy hauling. In the next few years that will change when I finish my power wagon and haul it here and there.

As part of my upgrades on the truck, I just installed a fuel pressure gauge, exhaust temp gauge and boost gauge to the "A" pillar in the cab.
The pressure gauge showed I was only getting about 6 psi of fuel to the injector pump at idle, and it went down to about 1 psi wide open!

Apparently the in-tank lift pumps are not able to supply much pressure to the injector pumps. Whether or not this is a time bomb I do not know. But, it made me a little nervous.

The 2nd gen trucks with the VP-44 fuel injector pumps need at a minimum about 7 p.s.i., I have read, to prevent damage to the pump from a loss of the lubrication features of diesel fuel. Research on the TDR forum revealed a reasonably priced fix, a frame mounted auxiliary lift pump by BD diesel products. These are sold by Summit racing, and you can view it in their catalog.

For trucks that have power enhancements, many people opt for the Air Dog or Fass system, which are more expensive, but on my stock truck I opted fo the BD, which was significantly less $. It was easy to install, and now I have 16 psi at idle, and 14 psi when I am accelerating!

I am feeling better now. Having to replace the injector pump on these trucks will cost well over $1k with installation. If anyone is running their CTD without a fuel pressure gauge, you are taking a big chance for problems. If your lift pump fails, then it is possible you will fry the very expensive injector pump. A gauge is cheap insurance. If you have the 2nd gen truck and a fuel tank mounted lift pump, you may especially want to look into this.

[Gordon Maney]

Another possibility involves the use of the original, engine mounted lift pump, relocating it with a kit that is commercially available. It puts the pump back by the tank.

I have a 2001 Cummins powered truck with about 120,000 miles that still has the original lift pump and fuel injection pump. I have no pressure gauge. I never said that was smart; just sharing.

There seems to be greatly varied opinion on how to resolve this problem and thus far I have been so overcome by sloth that I have done nothing. Interestingly, last March or so when I had trouble with my engine, the Cummins dealer determined that my lift pump was still fine.

The one idea that appeals to me is that the early, 12 valve engines apparently had a mechanically driven pump that can be adapted to the 24 valve engine, but it requires some major mechanical work, such as, I believe, replacing the cam shaft, but don't hold me to that detail.

I liked the belt driven, mechanical pump available, all except for the belt part.

It is a disappointing problem, to be sure.

[Gsmith]

frame pump is a booster pump

So Doc, you're saying you have the original type in tank lift pump, then the frame pump which serves as a booster pump? I have an '02 5.9, so I'm quite interested and listening to discussion on these.

[Doc Dave]

Yes,
What you said is correct.
I am so far very happy with the performance; the fuel pressure stays up above where it is supposed to be now.
From reading on the TDR forum and magazine, the injector pump in the 2nd generation trucks are especially prone to failure if the lift pump goes out or does not supply enought diesel to lubricate the injector pump. The lift pumps are notorious for "dying" without much warning.
This also can occur in other "generation" trucks, although they have different injector pumps that are not as sensitive to the fuel pressure, I believe.
The bottom line is that fuel pressure is the most important add-on gauge you can have, to alert you to impending trouble with the lift pump, etc.
I would recommend, in addition to the fuel pressure gauge you can get from Gino's Garage (along with the proper plumbing kit), that any one that is running the stock lift pump at the engine look into the lift pump relocation kit (for the frame rail). This reduces the vibration effects that appear to be responsible for the short life of these pumps. If you have the in the fuel tank retrofit pump, like I do, consider the BD diesel auxillary lift pump, that is available from Summitt racing.

[crike2000]

I have a 1999 CTD and bought it with 36K miles.

45K miles The first thing I did when I found out about the issue I installed the enlarged banjo bolts which made it easier on the lift pump and VP44
60K miles I started using a superchips programmer.
120K miles My lift pump died. I installed a FASS system. Which replaces all the fuel line with 1/2 line
130K miles I installed an Edge Comp.
140K miles I connected up my old fuel filter to get the fuel heater, after a freak cold spell that the gelled the fuel up. It was -14F and the fuel wasn't blended for winter yet from what I was told.
186K miles My FASS pump died. It was the old brush motor design. FASS replaced it free of charge. But it took out my tired VP44
186K miles Had ATS install stage 2 injectors and Hot Rod VP44

If I could do it all over again here is what I would do.
1. Install Fuel Pressure gauge
2. When the lift pump dies install the FASS pump(only) and install new 1/2 inch lines from tank to FASS and from FASS to original Fuel filter and from filter to injector pump.

[712edf]

thread bump

just bumping this thread up for a fellow member who is having similar issues and may find some useful info here.

Bcky

[mattsoldmopars]

Gordon

The one idea that appeals to me is that the early, 12 valve engines apparently had a mechanically driven pump that can be adapted to the 24 valve engine, but it requires some major mechanical work, such as, I believe, replacing the cam shaft, but don't hold me to that detail.

I liked the belt driven, mechanical pump available, all except for the belt part.

None the 12 valve engines or any of the other cummins engines (No matter how many valves they have) in our Dodge trucks,, DON'T have the injection pump driven by a belt. Everything on the front of the engine is driven by gears, including the injection pump, oil pump, the power steering pump is even gear driven. This picture I am posting shows that.

The only thing that is belt driven on these trucks is the accessories, like the water pump, alternator, a/c, etc. That is one of the thing that makes these engines so great and last so long it's all gear driven.

Also yes you can put a mechanical 12 valve injection pump on a 1998.5-2002 24 valve truck. It requires a bit of work, including a 12V cam gear or new camshaft, the gear press's on the cam, and you will also need the injector lines from a 1994-1998 12 vavle truck as well as some other misc parts.

I know two people that have done this swap. There are also a few website that have more info about this swap, and some magazine articles. Others have also done this swap to. With all the injection pump problems I had with my 1999 Dodge, if I ever find a deal on a 1998.5-2002 24V truck with a bad injection pump, I would like to do this swap also.

However the kits that are commercially available for the 24V trucks to relocate the lift pump are a lot cheaper option.



I currently own a 2000 Dodge 24V with the Air-Dog fuel system. When I bought the truck the previous owner had just put both a new lift pump and injection pump on it a few weeks before I bought it from him. Not wanting to have the flash backs of failed injection pump on the side of the road agian like with my new 1999 Dodge 24V.

I did some research on the lift pump replacment systems. And before I even drove the truck home I installed the Air-Dog in a friends driveway, it was a pretty easy install with your basic tools worst part of the job is either dropping the tank or lifting the bed up to get access to the top of the sending unit. I opted to lift the bed up and held it up with blocks of wood until I was done with the sending unit mods.

Everyone has their own tatse and what they can afford. I opted to go with the Air-Dog of a few reasons even though it is a little more money then the other systems out there.

1, it is fuel and air separtion system (just like a lot of the semi's have) Diesel fuel naturally traps air when being pumped (just look at it when your pumping it will foam up) the separated air/foam is returned to the tank, you can see this in the filler neck after the system is put on. Less air in the Fuel (more pure fuel) going to the pump = a happier smoother running Cummins.

2, 3, 4, 5, etc,,, lifetime warranty (that was a big seller for me) the engine idles/runs smother, gives the injection pump the fuel it needs, filters are cheaper then the stock ones, a little better MPG, also with just a stock trucks it helps a little in the power dept, they also filter fuel far more superior, larger fuel lines/hose flows fuel easier less restrictions

There are many other benefits, that I am not going to type, dont want to sound like a salesman for Air-Dog, but one thing I noticed is this fall when I needed to put a new starter in my truck, it was a lot easier to do. I took the stock filter off of the truck and the stock lift pump when I put the Air-Dog on, since both are by-bass now and no longer in use. And when I was doing the starter I had very easy acces to the top starter bolt with the other stuff out of the way, usually you have to use a extension and swivel W/ socket. I had the starter out and back in, in No Time.

I know that the BD kits and some others are about half the price as the Air-Dog or Fass systems, but none of the other kits have a lifetime warranty, or will do the other extra things that a Fass/Air-Dog will do.

I main reason I chose the Air-Dog over the Fass, is from what I read the Fass is a little louder, and it mounts to the frame different. My truck is a 2x4 and sits low enough as is, so I didnt want a even lower pump. I guess the louder thing should not matter, after all it is on loud Diesel anyway.

I felt if I was going to spend the money, on lift pump system I would only spend it one time and spend a little more to get A LOT more. I am VERY happy with the system I have chosen, it's been on the truck almost 100,000 miles now and no problems at all.

By the way my truck is pretty much bone stock, no chips for now atleast. The only things I have done to it other then the Air-Dog is I put a better exhaust system on it, and a better air filter system. Oh and I have a ATS 3-piece exhaust manifold on it because the stocker started to crack.

Just trying to help. Matt

[Gordon Maney]

In my post I was referring to transfer pumps [lift pumps]. There is a transfer pump available from the aftermarket that is belt driven. It hung low on the front of the engine and seemed a point of vulnerability.

[mattsoldmopars]

Gordon, Wow thats a new one on me, have Never heard of lift/transfer pump available from the aftermarket that is belt driven, until you said something. I don't know everything there is to know. I guess I still learn something new almost everyday?

I googled it and came up with one from FUEL BOSS a belt driven mechanical lift pump system that retails for $609.00 That is pretty spendy and $100 more then a Fass or Air-Dog system. And the Fuel Boss does not do any of the extra things the Fass/Air-Dog does. It does not look like they come with a lifetime warranty either.

I guess that could be a good option if nothing else was available from the other companys. I have had good luck with the modern belts on my CTD trucks. My 1993 CTD has 425,000 miles and is on its 2nd serpentine belt, my 2000 CTD is also on its 2nd serpentine belt with 315,000 miles, when I sold my 1999 Dodge CTD it had 185,000 miles and still had the original serpentine belt from the factory.

You said though that the "early, 12 valve engines apparently had a mechanically driven pump that can be adapted to the 24 valve engine, but it requires some major mechanical work, such as, I believe, replacing the cam shaft, but don't hold me to that detail."

So I am not going to hold you to any "detail". I guess I just read to fast and thought you were talking about the injection pump B/C I saw something about the cam shaft and I knew that you had to replace the cam to put the injection pump from a 1994-1998 12V to a 24V?? That being said I have Never seen a early, 12 valve engine that had a belt driven pump.

I have owned Five 1989-1993 (if that is what you meant by early 12 valve engines??) Cummins Dodge Trucks and they all had a mechanically driven lift/transfer pump Yes, but it is not driven by a belt. It is pumps or runs off of the little "arm" like most gas engines from the old days,, see pic.



And as far as I know it can't be adapted to a 1998.5-2002 24V Cummins. The 1994-1998 12V trucks also have a mechanically driven lift/transfer pump, similar to the 1989-1993 Cummins truck pumped by the "Arm".

There is countless websites out there with almost literally "tons" of info that you could spend days reading about our trucks. Some of it I find to be true and other info is not so true.

However the one thing I know For-Sure is that I wish there was more of that info "back in the day" when it was needed!! Meaning when I bought my 1999 Dodge 24 vavle new, no one knew any of the pump problems that lye ahead for those trucks, I had many problems with my truck and not one Dodge dealer could seem to figure out what was going on with my truck, since it never put out any fault codes when it was running poorly. So I kind of felt like guinea pig!!

They were just basing there info off of the 1994-1998 12 vavle trucks which are a lot more reliable in the pump dept. and how they almost never had pump problems. So why was this new 24V acting up??

The whole time my truck was acting up, the check engine light never came on and when hooked to the computer it never put out any fault codes, one of their only answers was I must have got a bad tank fo fuel and changed the filter and sent my back on the road. I told them that my truck gets more fuel put thru it in a week then most any other Dodge CTD pickup on the road does in 3-4 months.

I put a new fuel filter on my truck every other oil change, so about every 6,000-7,000 miles it got a new filter, that is more often then what the book called for. I just opted to change it every other oil change when the truck was shut down for service to be on the safe side.

Granted I used my truck for towing 99.999% of the time and my truck had over 100,000 miles on it before it was even a year old. The dealer tried blaming my problems on my towing habits, I told that is what these truck are made for!! I used the truck for hauling loads of frieght around the USA, cars, trucks, etc,,, my personal best was 7800 miles in 7 days, I dont think I could do that agian, or would even want to try?? it was some very hard running, and I had a co-driver for one leg of that trip about 2000 miles, so I could get some sleep, but I didn't sleep the whole 2000 miles.

When my truck finally would not run anymore it had just over 101,000 miles on it and then it finally put out the fault code that the injection pump was bad. I had paper work from the dealer saying that it had been having problems for a few thousand miles before the warranty had ran out. That was one of my only saving graces, that is how I got chrysler to cover my first set of pumps under warranty, even though it was out of the 100,000 mile engine warranty by 1,000 miles.

I just wish some the aftermarket companys were making their products back in the day when they were most needed. 24V trucks are good trucks, and once you solve the lift pump problem your good to go!! I would NOT own a 1998.5-2002 24V without some kind of aftermarket lift pump.

Enough ranting,,,

Enyjoy your weekend, the weather it's NICE here today, in Northest Colorado high of 56 today, 52 Tomorrow, and 53 for Monday. Going to head outside and get something done!! Can't complain for mid-January

Talk to you later, Matt

[Gordon Maney]

I believe I have read on the turbodieselregister website that the mechanical lift pump from the 1st series trucks can be put on the 24V, 2nd generation trucks, with a camshaft change, of course. I admit to not having done it myself, and certainly what I read may be wrong.

In my reference to belt driven pumps, my remarks may not have been as definitive as they should have been. I meant lift pump and no injection pump.

Google RASP or Mitusa to read of the lift pumps. I don't see that either are currently sold. Perhaps the vulnerability of the belt emerged as an issue.

[mattsoldmopars]

I understood your post better after I read it over again.

I need to get my PWA subscription going again, I have really MISSED getting it in the mail the last year or so. I think the last copy I got was the July of 2008,, man times sure flys!!

I used to always re-up at the Iowa rally, but have not been to the rally for the last two years now B/C other things have taken up my time. I hope you have enough back issues, to catch me upto date??

Matt

[Gordon Maney]

I understood your post better after I read it over again.

I need to get my PWA subscription going again, I have really MISSED getting it in the mail the last year or so. I think the last copy I got was the July of 2008,, man times sure flys!!

I used to always re-up at the Iowa rally, but have not been to the rally for the last two years now B/C other things have taken up my time. I hope you have enough back issues, to catch me upto date??

Matt

Yes, absolutely!