WHEEL/TIRE repair

[Kaiser2boy]

Is it possible to remove the tire off the rim without killing your self?
I have heard two sides to the question. One side says, No problem, let the air out pop off the retainer ring , slide off the tire and tube.
The other side says no matter what you do the ring will fly off and cut your head off.

Keep in mind I dont have a tire changing rig only standard tools.
Why do I want to pull them? I keep seeing trickles of rusty stuff on the side walls and I am wondering whats going on inside there.

[Gordon Maney]

Is it possible to remove the tire off the rim without killing your self?

Yes.

I have heard two sides to the question. One side says, No problem, let the air out pop off the retainer ring , slide off the tire and tube.

You can't simply blow the ring off with air pressure. I can't imagine trying that. You have to break the tire down, break the beads, something best done with a slide hammer bead breaker. Then, using tire irons, work the ring out of the groove in the wheel

The other side says no matter what you do the ring will fly off and cut your head off.

No.

Keep in mind I don't have a tire changing rig only standard tools. Why do I want to pull them? I keep seeing trickles of rusty stuff on the side walls and I am wondering whats going on inside there.

To do this work you would need at least two good tire irons, a lock ring tool would be helpful, and something to break the beads. That would either be a bead hammer or a slide hammer bead breaker.

Personally, I have never liked bead hammers. You have to be very accurate and very good, or you won't get the bead broken and you will bend the rim flanges. The slide hammer is easy — though exhausting — to run.

If you had a wheel with no tire on it that would help you to see how the ring comes off.

Google images for tire bead breaker hammer, and also for slide hammer bead breaker.

I did not know Klein made such a thing.
http://www.service.kleintools.com/To...Product/7BB124

Go here:
http://www.kentool.com/osha.html
Download OSHA 3402. It describes the procedure.

Kentool is, to my knowledge, the best, single source of tire tools.

[Kaiser2boy]

Thank you.
looking at some of the videos I see that most of the tools are simple lever items. I have steel and a welder so I guess I can try my hand at making a tool.
So I guess I dont need neck protection so my head wont get cut off.
I do remember reading in some puplication that when you start filling the tire with air to keep an eye on the locking ring and if the gap starts to get bigger STOP!!! and let air out and recheck it. It also mentioned looping a chain through the rim and around the ring a few times. This is why I asked about the flying ring thing.

[Matthew Ziegler]

tires

depending on the age of the tire, they can be a real fight to remove, I had some 30 year old goodyears on my truck that had to be changed, I tried tire irons, forklifted the wheel and tire into a 3 ton arbor press,no luck, tried putting the tire against a block wall and pushing with one of the forks, no luck, finally wound up using one of the outriggers on a kenworth wrecker and a few prybars, still took from 6pm unitll almost 1 am to do four tires. the rubber had actually glued itself to the bead and lockring, they were coated in a thin layer of it when I finally got them apart.

[Paul Cook]

Can't resist having a little fun here Call me KAISER MAN

TM 9-8030, OPERATION AND ORGANIZATIONAL MAINTENANCE, dated 2 May 1955, covered all aspects of operating the M37 series and performing First and Second Echelon maintenance. First Echelon was performed by the assigned driver/operator, and Second Echelon was by trained mechanics at the unit’s motor pool. (Third Echelon was performed at a maintenance unit.)

TM 9-8030, Paragraph 83, Preventative Maintenance by Organizational Maintenance Mechanics, Sub b. Driver or Operator Participation, states, “The drivers or operators should accompany vehicles and assist the mechanics while periodic organizational preventative services are performed.”

TM 9-8030, Paragraph 229, Tire and Tube, prescribes the procedure for removing and replacing the tire and the tube. The TM did not specify whether the driver/operator or the unit mechanic was responsible for changing the tire or tube, but in most units it was done by the driver/operator under supervision by the mechanic to cover safety requirements.

TM 9-8030 was superseded by TM-9-2320-212-10, dated 1973, was a “Dash Ten” which meant it covered the First Echelon maintenance performed by the Operator, but did not address Second echelon maintenance performed by unit maintenance personnel and covered by a “Dash Twenty” TM. In TM-9-2320-212-10, the driver/operator is responsible for changing the “spare” tire and wheel assembly, but there is no mention of changing the inner tube separately.

This situation generally applied to M-715 5/4 ton series and two-and-a-half, and five ton cargo trucks as well. NOTE that the M-715 series, as well as some to two-and-a-half, and five ton cargo trucks were manufactured by KAISER, so it’s reasonable to refer to those of us who changed tires and tubes on them as KAISER MEN.

By 1973, this issue was going away with the advent of the CUCV’s with tubeless tires and tire changing machines in the motor pools.

I was in the US Army twenty years. I changed a few split ring tires. For safety, we always used an inflating cage -just like real truck tire shops. One of those times when “rank” did not matter was if you were assigned a vehicle. I was in a provisional unit that had more vehicles than individuals. In addition to having an assigned vehicle, I also was assigned additional duties as the Unit Maintenance Officer. I worked on my vehicle and supervised others working on their vehicles.

Paul F. Cook
CW3, US Army Retired
“KAISER MAN”

[Kaiser2boy]

depending on the age of the tire, they can be a real fight to remove, I had some 30 year old goodyears on my truck that had to be changed, I tried tire irons, forklifted the wheel and tire into a 3 ton arbor press,no luck, tried putting the tire against a block wall and pushing with one of the forks, no luck, finally wound up using one of the outriggers on a kenworth wrecker and a few prybars, still took from 6pm unitll almost 1 am to do four tires. the rubber had actually glued itself to the bead and lockring, they were coated in a thin layer of it when I finally got them apart.

If the tires were that bad I would roll it out back and set it on fire and wait and brush away the ash.
The tires are only a two years old. I keep seeing rust coming out around the ring and I do not know whats going on inside there. I want to see if they are rusted almost to the breaking point.

[John Waak]

TM 9-8030, Paragraph 229, Tire and Tube, prescribes the procedure for removing and replacing the tire and the tube.

Paul, paragraph 229.c.(2) instructs the technician to "Place six bead clips on each tire, spacing them evenly and alternating the clips on one bead with those on the other."

I have never changed a split ring type tire, nor have I ever seen such a clip used on a Power Wagon or M37 Budd wheel.

What is the story on these bead clips? What was their purpose? Are they deemed unnecessary today? Are they even available today?

[Denis]

Bead Clips

I believe bead clips were suposed to help keep the tire from coming off the rim if the tire went flat and the truck could not be stopped. Kind of like a combat wheel. I have an old rusty parts truck which still has bead locks on the wheels. They are very rarely seem as they are very difficult to install. I bought a box which had a gross of locks for 5.00 at a show about 5 years ago but have never seen them before or since.

[DAPM37]

M37 bead clips for sale

I have 10 used take off bead lock clips for sale if you want them. Make me an offer.

[Kaiser2boy]

Anyone have or know how to see a picture of these clips? or a picture of them on a wheel?

[Charles Talbert]

Not that big a deal

Most of the junk you hear from tire shops who refuse to work on these is a bunch of, well. The federal agencies have pressed this stuff hard; I'm sure you know that story as their ultimate goal is to get ALL vintage vehicles OFF THE ROAD, period. They threaten tire service outlets with huge fines unless they spend huge $$ on training, etc.

The bottom line is, no you don't need to tackle this job without proper tooling and know how. Good tooling is not real expensive, and know how is hugely just common sense. Anyone who can afford to be in this hobby can afford Ken-Tools.

Bead breaking hammers or slide hammer bead breakers are not necessary, all you need is a driving iron, a simple wedge device to break the bead, you can use your own hammer of a 2# or a little heavier variety with the iron. Driving irons actually work better on the smaller rims found on M37 and Power Wagons. It's use instead of a bead breaking hammer will also greatly lessen chances of rim damage.

The only other necessary special tool is a lock ring removal tool. You do not need spoon type tools, etc. We have changed hundreds with only these 2 specialty items and general tools found in any shop.

A tire inflating cage is really good to have, but isn't necessary just for changing the occasional tire. I'd even venture to say cages cause people to become careless as I've known 2 people who got broken bones and serious cuts while using a cage. I also knew 1 that was killed not using a cage, but there is more to that story.

It is a really good idea to use some good quality grade 80 or better chain with grade 80 hooks and hardware to secure the ring and rim in at least 3 places equally spaced from each other to contain it in the event that the ring was forced off the rim.

You need to be able to recognize a damaged rim and use common sense when doing this job; mainly if it doesn't look right when you install that lock ring; don't start to inflate it. I would advise talking to a person who has had experience doing this job.

Older folks in the business and folks who have worked at heavy truck tire shops are a wealth of info. Youngsters at the corner passenger car tire shop likely won't even understand the question you are asking.

Someone mentioned demounting tires that were 30 years old, in that case you never know what you may run into, they can be tough. In these situations, you may have to seek professional help. Most truck tire shops that have been in business for years will have special tooling that helps out big in the tough situations. We have had some tough ones, but never one that we couldn't get off if we worked at it. After you change a few, it gets easier, and you will learn tricks that make it easier.

[Gordon Maney]

The driving iron that Charles mentions is something I had never seen. If you Google tire driving iron you will see what they look like. That is the business end of a slide hammer bead breaker. Most of the tire shop rats I have ever seen wanted first to pick up a tire hammer. I hate those, and would never let them use one on my wheel. I have only ever seen one man in my life who was perfectly accurate with a tire hammer. The business end of a tire hammer is essentially like the driving iron, it is just part of a large hammer head. Most have long handles like a sledge hammer, but there are also short handled versions.

I don't doubt the driving irons work just fine. My history of tire work has dealt with a large number of tires that have been on the wheel for a seeming eternity. The slide hammer allows you to deliver blows that you could never deliver with a hand held hammer and a driving iron.

I am not saying a slide hammer is required. My experience was that after I did a dozen or so jobs removing tires that had been cemented by time to the wheels using hand tools and hand hammers [on the farm as a kid], I longed for better. I bought my slide hammer in the 70's and it was $75 then. I see they are in the vicinity of $185 now.

A lot of this pivots on how many you intend to do, and how much fun you find the experience to be. Meaning, you might do a set of four and feel like you want a slide hammer. I bought the tool figuring I would use it many times during my lifetime, and I have. I am sure I will use it more. I have also used it on other kinds of wheels, including tubeless.

[Charles Talbert]

Gordon is right about the slide hammer on the lighter rims. Tire hammers are specifically designed for the heavy rims of big trucks, tractors, etc. If you pay attention, the typical tire hammer with the 36" handle is pretty thick on the bead breaking wedge. There is a newer version of the old hammer out now with an added wedge designed to prevent sidewall damage to the tire. I haven't used one of the new ones to date, not sure how well it works.

A driving iron wedge is about half or maybe less thickness as compared to the typical hammer. That alone makes it way better suited for bead breaking on lighter duty rims. We have both the hammer and the driving iron.

Most times I start off with the driving iron, when the bead begins to move downward, then I pull out the big hammer and finish the job because in most cases it's faster. I got pretty proficient with the hammer method breaking down motor grader tires back in the grading days. Those were much heavier rims than on a light truck.

There is also a lighter version of the typical tire hammer. It has a short 18" handle and is the same thickness on the wedge as the driving iron. We have that one also, it is much easier for an inexperienced person to use as far as being accurate with hammer blows.

I never had the slide hammer because they are not heavy enough to work well on the heavy walled tires and rims such as the motor grader and pan tires I mentioned. I'd invest in a slide hammer if we had more frequent use, but we've gotten use to the hammer and iron method, and it works well with tools that I've owned for nearly 40 years.

[DAPM37]

Killer tires

Interesting discussion. Yesterday I tried to dismount 4 tires from rims. The tires had 1954 dates and had been left out in the rain/weather long term. They were 9.00 X 16 non-directionals.

The JAARS shop has a bead breaking device with about a 2"+ foot that slides under the split rim (I remove the valve core completely so no air is left in the tire). This foot is attached to a slide hammer in a shaft so you can smack it and separate the tire from the lock ring (what is the official name for this tool?).

Usually you have to beat on it pretty hard to separate the rubber from the lock ring and then to get it to slide down on the rim. I have seen other tools they call bead breakers that basically look like a modified pick axe (what is the official name for this tool). I don't go back to tire shops that use those as I have had bad experiences with them missing and denting the lock ring or rim face on the back side. I used to take my tires to various tire shops for dismounting but those places either went out of business or won't do it anymore.

The last tires I dismounted were a real struggle. I thought with these I would be clever and used someone's 35 ton log splitter to push down on the tire. I could peal it away from the flange of the lock ring but couldn't get it to slide down the rim. The log spliter blade evetually punctured the tire. If I had an adapter that paralleled the lock ring instead of being 90 degrees to it I thing it might have worked better?????

I gave up on the log spltter and tried to do it by hand with this tool. 5 hours later I had 3 disassembled and was so exhausted I gave up on the last one. I even used soap to try and lubricate and get the tire to slide down the rim. it sounds like Charles and others expereince is much easier than my experience.What am I missing?

FYI - it seems my average is that for every 2-4 rims I breakdown I will find 1 good one. I am pretty picky but when I find a bent lockring (like from pick ax damage) or rim OR any appreciable rust on the lock ring or rim flanges I reject the rim or lock ring. I don't think I am being to picky but note I can run my M37 up to 68 mph so they have to be solid and run true.

The good news on bad rims is that I remove the center of the rim and send it out to be welded into a tubeless rim. The bad news is that the company I use typically takes 9+ months to get it back to me. Good thing my 2nd truck is a 20 year project.

[Gordon Maney]

The tool you describe in your second paragraph is a slide hammer bead breaker.

I am having a hard time visualizing this other situation you describe as not working so well.