Inform Yourself

[QuantumJo]

What set of circumstances could explain the sudden and global collapse of the 47 story WTC bldg #7 through the path of most resistance into its own foot print at nearly free fall speed?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Atbrn4k55lA

Moparfreek69, your affixation with WTC 1 & 2 is not uncommon. At another time I will be glad to discuss them. For the moment I am still looking for a rational explanation for what caused building 7 to collapse.

after the Angels collected the innocent souls and whisked them up to Gods loving embrace, the Power of the Holy Spirit came slamming down, (crushing a scientifically stable structure) casting the evil straight back to ****. thats my theory. A miracle

In order for me to keep objectivity I will not rule out any explanation. Perhaps an invisible hand from the heavens pushed building 7 to the ground. I think it to be highly improbable but not impossible.

[MoparFreak69]

Gotcha, I missed the connection and see the point you were making. Seperate you can see how someone might get uppity about them. I wonder if the person that made the picture had the same thought in their mind as you when you posted it to follow your earlier posting idea. Somehow I doubt that though.

Like I said though, it is a cool picture. It took some real photoshop talent to get that cloud in there like that and make it look so realistic.

I was stationed as far on the opposite side of the US as possible when 9/11 happened (Hawaii). We were out on a field traning exercise that immediately ended and became an air strip guarding role, exercise excluded. Life in the Army was never the same after that. I saw firsthand, for an entire year, the evil that encompasses the middle east. I lost too many good friends out there because of it. I will never understand how someone can feel they did the world a good thing by destroying the lives of so many.

Wait til they find out their 70 virgins are not what they believe them to be, too bad it is too late for all that they have taken with them.

[74w300uteline]

I need to reread this thread

and see where I went off course. the image in post#13 (from a tornado website) references my earlier post #9. My only lack of respect is towards the Jihadis who comitted this evil act in hopes of garnering favor with their diety. I see no reason to treat their swift eternal punishment in a tastefull manner.
Two weeks of working logistics (rescue gear and food) 100 yards away from the smoldering pile, elbow to elbow with the uniformed rescuers from all branches of the military, dreading the next long blast of the horn calling all work to cease, as newfound remains of innocent Americans were removed, kinda leaves me with a chip on my shoulder.

[MoparFreak69]

"Skyscrapers are designed to support themselves for three hours in a fire even if the sprinkler system fails to operate. This time should be long enough to evacuate the occupants. The WTC towers lasted for one to two hours—less than the design life, but only because the fire fuel load was so large. No normal office fires would fill 4,000 square meters of floor space in the seconds in which the WTC fire developed."

"Nearly every large building has a redundant design that allows for loss of one primary structural member, such as a column. However, when multiple members fail, the shifting loads eventually overstress the adjacent members and the collapse occurs like a row of dominoes falling down."

"The perimeter tube design of the WTC was highly redundant. It survived the loss of several exterior columns due to aircraft impact, but the ensuing fire led to other steel failures."

"As the joists on one or two of the most heavily burned floors gave way and the outer box columns began to bow outward, the floors above them also fell. The floor below (with its 1,300 t design capacity) could not support the roughly 45,000 t of ten floors (or more) above crashing down on these angle clips. This started the domino effect that caused the buildings to collapse within ten seconds, hitting bottom with an estimated speed of 200 km per hour. If it had been free fall, with no restraint, the collapse would have only taken eight seconds and would have impacted at 300 km/h.1 It has been suggested that it was fortunate that the WTC did not tip over onto other buildings surrounding the area. There are several points that should be made. First, the building is not solid; it is 95 percent air and, hence, can implode onto itself. Second, there is no lateral load, even the impact of a speeding aircraft, which is sufficient to move the center of gravity one hundred feet to the side such that it is not within the base footprint of the structure. Third, given the near free-fall collapse, there was insufficient time for portions to attain significant lateral velocity. To summarize all of these points, a 500,000 t structure has too much inertia to fall in any direction other than nearly straight down."



Just a few sources I came across with a simple search.

Jet fuel can burn around 1000 degrees C in an open air environment. Steel loses half of its strength at approximately 650 degrees C. The planes were hijacked very shortly after take-off, international bound. That is a LOT of fuel.

74w300uteline, That is a cool concept for a picture, I however feel that the exact subject matter of the photo shows an extreme lack of respect not only for those that perished, but to all those serving to protect your right to post that photo wherever and however you choose. I understand, and agree with the message to a certain extent, but it could have been portayed in a much more tasteful manner.

[QuantumJo]

Bam

I’m not following your last post. Rather than speculate what you are attempting to convey, I will wait for an unambiguous reply.

My convictions revolve around tangible and sensible observations. Tangible is what I can hold & touch, sensible is what I can hear, see, smell and taste. I assume that everyone on this board is familiar with the strengths and weaknesses of steel. It is the building material of choice for hi-rise buildings for several well founded reasons.

Never in my life have I seen steel perform in a way that is atypical. My hammers don’t dent… my wrenches don’t bend in my hand… my stove top doesn’t melt… This is what I would expect from steel. What I would not expect from steel is sudden and global loss of strength and liquefaction at temperatures below its melting point.

Please believe me when I tell you that there are times that I think that being ignorant would be so much easier than being informed. This is by no means easy for me. When I am confronted with a conflict between what I know to be true (through real world experiences) and what I am told, I search for the truth to better my understanding of the world around me. 9/11 is no different.

[74w300uteline]

a

b

[74w300uteline]

this is what i had in my minds eye

Bam

[MoparFreak69]

My skin is thick. Your post was in no way insulting to me. No apology is needed.

For the sake of finding middle ground, lets proceed under the assumption that planes were hijacked and flown into WTC1, 2 and the Pentagon. What set of circumstances could explain the sudden and global collapse of the 47 story WTC bldg #7 through the path of most resistance into its own foot print at nearly free fall speed?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Atbrn4k55lA

I couldnt get the video to load so right now I am going strictly off memory for the time being but here goes my theory/view of the situation.

A "normal" office fire in a steel structured building will not generate enough heat to damage anything more than the visual aspect of the building (ie doors, non-bearing walls, windows, flammable things like this that only serve to break up the main rooms into offices and such). Paper products and such burn at a fairly low temperature resulting in the orange flame. Jet fuel burns MUCH hotter, resulting in a fire that can, and will, cause steel to begin to soften and weaken. What I remember from the videos is that the building started collapsing around the point of entry first (fire weakens structure from entry point up). What then happens is the lower structure, which is only designed to hold that weight at a constant, cant handle the shock of the weight of the upper portion of the building free-falling momentarily and then slamming down on the section below it. A sort of jackhammer effect takes place and the lower supporting structure simply cannot handle it and gives way (evidence by the torn supports visible after all was said and done, so to speak anyway). The buildings did not, in fact, fall perfectly straight down like would happen in a planned demolition. Many surrounding buildings were damaged by more than thrown debris.

I also have to readily agree with 74w300uteline's comments about planning in America. American's cant even figure out a self check-out at Walmart enough to know how to check out quickly, there is no way something like that could have been orchestrated while remaining invisible, so to speak.

I will definately check out the video when I get home to my own internet connection and revise any mis-statements I may have made at that time!

[QuantumJo]

as i sit here typing with tears in my eyes, I somehow find this theraputic...

I often find myself in the same situation.
Perhaps when this all makes since to me I can let go of my anger. Until then I will dig for truth. I am glad in some way this post helped you.

I can never forget.

[74w300uteline]

i have my own theory. A MIRACLE

after the Angels collected the innocent souls and whisked them up to Gods loving embrace, the Power of the Holy Spirit came slamming down, (crushing a scientifically stable structure) casting the evil straight back to ****. thats my theory. A miracle

as i sit here typing with tears in my eyes, I somehow find this theraputic.
Thank you Qjoe I really mean that.

Never Forget!

[QuantumJo]

One Meridian Plaza is a 38-floor skyscraper in Philadelphia that burned for 18 hours. The First Interstate Bank Building is a 62-story skyscraper in Los Angeles, it burned for 3 1/2 hours. 1 New York Plaza is a 50-story office tower that burned for more than 6 hours. The tallest skyscraper in Caracas, Venezuela the Caracas Tower burned for more than 17 hours. None of these buildings collapsed due to fire. I can’t find any publications that attribute the collapse of any steel framed high-rise building in the world other than WTC7 due to fire. Not at my public library, not on line, nowhere. If building 7 collapsed due to fire it was unprecedented.

I found several articles by Popular Mechanics to be weak and not address many key factors. Two that stand out are global collapse & collapsing at near free fall speed.

[74w300uteline]

sprinklers failed, office contents burned for 8 hrs

Thermal expansion of key structural members. The fire supression water supply was interupted by the collapse of the towers. 7 WTC's contents burned uncontrolled for 7/8 hours. popular mechanics had a good write up back in 2008.

[QuantumJo]

My skin is thick. Your post was in no way insulting to me. No apology is needed.

For the sake of finding middle ground, lets proceed under the assumption that planes were hijacked and flown into WTC1, 2 and the Pentagon. What set of circumstances could explain the sudden and global collapse of the 47 story WTC bldg #7 through the path of most resistance into its own foot print at nearly free fall speed?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Atbrn4k55lA

[74w300uteline]

my original response

May have been sarcastic and insulting. for that i apologize. In my defense I have suffered personal and financial losses as a result of the ISLAMIK attack on my home town. any attempts to misdirect blame gets me heated up.

[74w300uteline]

you help me, I help you

the theory of coordinated demolition of the trade center is possible on paper, but in the real world no way. I know NYC, we cant even coordinate the traffic lights. As a communications worker of America local 1109, I pulled cable throughout the WTC bldgs 1,2 5,&7. you couldn't even get a sandwich delivered to that place in a timely fashion. I just cant see a coordinated covert undertaking of the magnitude needed to accomplish the demo. Just to many people involved and people have the propensity to run their mouths. You couldn't pull it off logistically and someone would blab. The only way .0001% chance of this is the cleaning people at night working for months. but that .0001 chance is squashed by murphys law. nothing in NYC runs smoothly, and somebody always sees something.
I'm not doubting the capability to demolish a structure or questioning the laws of physics i'm just refusing to accept a mission impossible scenario in a place I knew inside out. the laws of physics yes, the competance of humans no way!