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  • #16
    I've been working towards the goal of higher road speeds for today's world with the 230, and believe there's another 25-30 hp in it, and the capability to develop useful torque in the 1800-2000 rpm range. You won't do it with the stock carb, head, and exhaust, the breathing just isn't there.

    The 1958-59 head featured 8:1 compression with better flow- a critical difference over older heads, as any mod you do to gain compression on flatheads usually kills flow, and vice versa. The 1959 230 was rated at 120 hp with the late model head, vs 94 hp with the earlier head. You should also split the exhaust manifold or go to Langdon's cast iron header. I intend to go to individual carburetion (3 CVK 40 Kehein Harley Davidson carbs)to keep all of the low end and get max high end.

    Brakes, wheels, and tires are a primary concern. You need to get better brakes up front, preferably disc- look into the Ugly Truckling 3/4 ton Chevy disc brake mod, or go to more modern axles like Dana 60's. Using a split master cylinder with power assist is highly recommended. If you stay with the original axles, you will likely have to completely rebuild them, do this now while parts are still available.

    The original wheels are split ring, and can run modern radials (Yokohama's work well) with tubes and flaps, but for sustained highway use a wider, modern rim should be used- this means custom wheels unless you go with modern axles. The Non-Directional bias plys are entirely unsuited to high-speed highyway use, and will kill you in the rain. Power steering is another needed mod- you'l want a quicker ratio than the original, but you'll still have a huge turning radius unless (again) you go to modern axles...

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    • #17
      Originally posted by John Waak View Post
      Would the same hold true for the 251?

      Yep. The power gains of the 251 over the 230 isnegligible in light of your goals.

      In addition to an engine upgrade, you also need to think about upgrading your axle gearing. All the power in the world won't translate into road speed if the gearing is geared for slow. 4.89 gears can be found for the differentials, but having to convert both front and back adds up dollar wise. Even then, I have my doubts about travelling at highway speeds comfortably and safely.

      Have you thought about investigating a chassis/drive-train swap? That is, dropping the body on a modern Dodge Ram chassis? That may help you reach your goal without having to reinvent the whole truck. Just a thought.
      Yeah I thought about that but don't want to go that route. I'll keep it stock before I do that although that would probably be the cheapest and easiest solution. Lots to think about. Thanks for the info. Keep it coming! :)

      Comment


      • #18
        New Power Wagon Owner

        I'm fairly new to the Power Wagon world also, and bought my 61 WM300 about two months ago. The previous owner seemed to attempt what you are trying. Here's what he had done:

        -Original 251
        -Bored .0040 over
        -Heavy duty high performance cam
        -Pistons, cam, crank balanced and polished
        -Power steering/hydro boost
        -Power 4-wheel disc brakes
        -New 4:89 gears
        -Custom radial rims-he put 36" Super Swampers on it, but I put on 315/75R16 Yokohamas and they ride much better.

        All this work was done in the last 1.5 years. I can do 60 mph, but it is much happier at 45-55 mph. I may be able to go faster than 60 mph, but I won't. I did a 20 mile drive today at 55 mph and it managed quite well, but that's all the harder I'm going to push it. Going any faster gives all the folks driving by you less time to ogle your truck and give you the thumbs up sign.

        Good luck making it like you want it, but I thought you should know my experience.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Brutus I View Post
          I suppose the same could be said any time someone decides to hot rod a car or make any change to it that goes outside of the original design parameters. It's the American way. :) I can appreciate those who want to keep their trucks as close as possible to how they were when they rolled off the factory floor. There's nothing wrong with that. There is also nothing wrong with making changes that take a machine beyond it's originally intended limits or purpose. Maybe I'd like to be able to take my truck to the lake that is an hour and a half away and I don't want to take 3 hours getting there by going through the back roads. You go 55mph down I-75 around Atlanta and you're creating a hazard. I know what I am asking can be done and done right. I'm not asking whether anyone agrees with the decision to do it. If you don't agree with what I intend to do that's fine, don't do it with your truck. I'm simply trying to learn what the options are to get this truck where I want it to be.
          Don't misunderstand my comment.

          I totally agree it's your truck and I/we here always encourage someone to do with it as they wish.
          Was merely stating that lately it seems a lot of people are purchasing there truck and immediately what to redesign it into something it was never designed to do.

          In my opinion to reach your goal you should strongly consider mounting the body on a later chassis.
          There's a very good friend of mine that done that with a WC, with Excellent result's,using a older GM chassis.
          Lot less work .

          Some have installed the Cummins 5.9 with extensive cab firewall modifications,but the smaller 4 BT(3.9 fits much better.
          However you won't find a suitable chassis with that engine. You will have to swap it in.

          Looks like you found a very nice complete truck!
          Good Luck with your build
          TGP
          Attached Files
          WDX & Misc. Pics.
          http://www.t137.com/cpg/index.php?cat=10010
          "47" Dodge WDX WW
          "52" Dodge M-37 WW
          "54" Willys M38A1
          "65" Kaiser M35A1 WW
          "77" Chev. K-30 400T,205,4.56 "No-Spin"
          "84" Chev, K-30 Cummins 6-BTA 400,205,3.73Locker
          "86" Chev, M1028A2 (K30) 6.2,400.205,4.56 Locker
          "99" Dodge Durango "Limited Slip"
          "99" Dodge 3500 CTD 4x4"No-Spin"

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Tom Petroff View Post
            Don't misunderstand my comment.

            I totally agree it's your truck and I/we here always encourage someone to do with it as they wish.
            Was merely stating that lately it seems a lot of people are purchasing there truck and immediately what to redesign it into something it was never designed to do.

            In my opinion to reach your goal you should strongly consider mounting the body on a later chassis.
            There's a very good friend of mine that done that with a WC, with Excellent result's,using a older GM chassis.
            Lot less work .

            Some have installed the Cummins 5.9 with extensive cab firewall modifications,but the smaller 4 BT(3.9 fits much better.
            However you won't find a suitable chassis with that engine. You will have to swap it in.

            Looks like you found a very nice complete truck!
            Good Luck with your build
            TGP
            Tom, I think today, many people are attracted to Power Wagons for different reasons than they were 10, 20, or 30 years ago. A lot of people are still drawn to Power Wagons by their unique appearance, but they don't necessarily like the attributes that appeal to some of the rest of us. It is hard to go back to watching a 12-inch black and white TV when you are used to a HD color widescreen.

            Comment


            • #21
              MaineSS,
              Thanks for the post. I've seen some 230 engines on youtube with double and triple carbs. Not sure if they would put out the kind of power needed. It would be nice to be able to keep the original engine in it although its sounding like its a stretch at best to do so.

              Gary,
              Is your limitation on that set up the power or the gearing? It sounds like it would be limited with the gearing and tire size even if the engine had plenty of power.

              Tom,
              I appreciate the input. Lots to think about and I have plenty of time. When my house was built they put in a single 120 outlet in the whole garage. Argh! Have to get more power in the garage so I can run a bigger compressor and a little welder. I'm leaning toward a Charles Talbert 4BT setup but will have to see what kind of money that involves. Sure wish I was doing this a few years ago when those engines could be found at a fraction of what they now cost today.

              Comment


              • #22
                New Power Wagon Owner

                I believe it is a combination of both, but the experienced owners will need to answer with the technicalities. The problem with the 36" swampers was that the spare was too large to have a full length running board on the passenger side, which I really want on the truck. My truck was originally a flat bed that the owner put a PU bed on. I've ordered full length boards and hope to receive them soon.

                I'm not sure why the previous owner didn't change the gear ratio since he supposedly wanted more speed and did the engine mods to give it more power, and then replaced the original gears with the same size. Many of things he did to the truck don't make much sense to me and I'm undoing many and fixing others. But, each to their own. Good luck.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Brutus I View Post
                  MaineSS,
                  Tom,
                  I appreciate the input. Lots to think about and I have plenty of time. When my house was built they put in a single 120 outlet in the whole garage. Argh! Have to get more power in the garage so I can run a bigger compressor and a little welder. I'm leaning toward a Charles Talbert 4BT setup but will have to see what kind of money that involves. Sure wish I was doing this a few years ago when those engines could be found at a fraction of what they now cost today.
                  Charles doesn't use the 4BT any more. He's moved to the new 4.5L ISB motor. Really nice engine, but big $$$$. Don't kid yourself though, I managed to pick up a really nice 4BTA for mine for $2K, but by the time you add in all the rest of the drivetrain, accessories, and maintenance items I'll at least double that, and it also pushes a lot of other parts to either become more expensive, more complex, or both.

                  Don't get me wrong, I love the diesel concept and don't mind the added issues, I'm just saying the diesel conversion is about as far as you can get from an easy upgrade, which was the impression I got from your initial post. You can drop a V8 in a lot cheaper and easier.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    There are two problems you have to address in your search for higher road speed ability- gearing and torque.

                    The diff gearing available in the OEM axle is low enough (5.83:1 or 4.89:1) so that some form of overdrive is necessary, unless you're unconcerned with mileage of 5-8 mpg at 60+ mph. This will hold true with a V8 swap, since you'll be seeing 4000+ rpm to achieve this speed. 50% of the problem lies in gearing, because the PW needed farm tractor ratios to compensate for HP deficiency.

                    Spinning the NP 200 transfer case in excess of 2500 rpm quite often leads to severe overheating. If you use an overdrive tranny, you'll likely want to go to a centered diff rear axle, and an NP 205 case, or do the center drive NP 200 mod. The other possibilty is the Laycock OD used on Volvos (Model D) driven from the rear of the NP 200.

                    If you stay with the flathead, you need to bump compression and look at better breathing to get practical torque at the 1800-2000 rpms needed for an overdrive. I did some engine simulations with 230 data with dual carbs and a supposed "hot cam", and found that a single carb with the late pattern cam did a better job at low-midrange rpm's. The 230 can, in my opinion, make enough power with the right cam and induction, but I don't think anyone has looked at practical street use- what you see on You Tube is mostly race-oriented.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Couple things: as yourself what happens if you put 5.83 or 4.89 in your present Commins
                      Now, can it be almost 50 years ago we had a small dort oval race track in town. Back then flathead V-8s ruled the roost until car 55 a 34 Dodge coupe was modified with a 265 Dodge truck flathead 6 with aluninum head & dual carbs IT won consitently. A powerful combination not plagued by Ford flathead constant oveheating. Later the new competitor was a Hudson Hornet 6 with dual carbs. Yeah you can easily find comptible easy horespower' You stll have 45-60 with super low gears by todays standards with a 1 to 1 transmission!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by horace View Post
                        Couple things: as yourself what happens if you put 5.83 or 4.89 in your present Commins
                        Now, can it be almost 50 years ago we had a small dort oval race track in town. Back then flathead V-8s ruled the roost until car 55 a 34 Dodge coupe was modified with a 265 Dodge truck flathead 6 with aluninum head & dual carbs IT won consitently. A powerful combination not plagued by Ford flathead constant oveheating. Later the new competitor was a Hudson Hornet 6 with dual carbs. Yeah you can easily find comptible easy horespower' You stll have 45-60 with super low gears by todays standards with a 1 to 1 transmission!
                        So what would you do? Swap out the rear end and upgrade brakes and steering? Put the body on a modern chassis/drivetrain?

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Brutus I View Post
                          So what would you do? Swap out the rear end and upgrade brakes and steering? Put the body on a modern chassis/drivetrain?
                          I think for anyone to help you answer that we need to know what your parameters really are.

                          We've basically established that you cannot just bolt on or swap out one or two things and make it run with modern interstate traffic.

                          Now you have to decide what solution makes the most sense to what you want this truck to be. How concerned are you with originality? How much time and money do you want to sink into making this happen? What do you want to use the truck for and what capabilities are important to you? What are you really looking to use this truck to do?

                          All of the options here can be done and will work, but none of them is "perfect", the question is which one works best for you?

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                          • #28
                            I was asking horace because he seemed to be saying the engine was capable with the right modifications if you fix the gearing issue.


                            I'm thinking maybe I just keep this thing stock and keep it as simple as possible for my first restore. Then once I have more experience under my belt I can either leave it as is, modify the drivetrain, or sell it and use the money on a new project with diesel conversion.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Brutus my statement is 5.83 or 4.89 gears would serious affect a powerful Cummins for highway roadability!

                              I wanted to express larger cu in flathead 6's did have power capabilities expressed by an old memory. Sorry if I was not succinct.

                              The 5.89 or 4.83 are the most serious problem for modern highway speeds.

                              For my $.02 worth I can't get off on rechassing it with a modern chassis.

                              Now I'll either crawl under my trio of 47 PWs to check my gears since my curiosity is up. Seems to me when I bought my 1st 47 I was racing to beat a storm & I drove 55 or 60 but that was 35 yrs ago.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Brutus I View Post
                                I was asking horace because he seemed to be saying the engine was capable with the right modifications if you fix the gearing issue.

                                Absolutely. The Power Wagon should prove that gearing can solve just about any problem, but it's also about the clearest example of give and take you'll get in the engineering world.

                                You could change up the gearing in a number of different ways to get better road speed. Of course you loose acceleration and power in the process. With more gears you can get the best of both worlds (hence all the 6, 7, & 8 speed transmissions in modern cars), but that makes the drivetrain larger and more complex, and almost none of them are simple swaps, or cheap.

                                Basically you can upgrade the engine to work better with the stock drivetrain at higher speeds, or upgrade the drivetrain to work better with the stock engine at higher speeds, or if you really want your cake and eat it too, both.

                                I'm thinking maybe I just keep this thing stock and keep it as simple as possible for my first restore. Then once I have more experience under my belt I can either leave it as is, modify the drivetrain, or sell it and use the money on a new project with diesel conversion.
                                I highly recommend that to all my friends that think about getting a first project car. I'm enjoying my rebuild but it's been 3 years and I've got many more to go, and I'm single and have a good workshop. I'm excited to eventually drive this thing but in the meantime I have another antique car I can enjoy when the urge strikes.

                                Get it running and driving and use it. Then pick your path slowly and do repairs and upgrades as your time, budget, life, and desire allow. You'll have more fun that way, and probably come to a better understanding of what you want the truck to be long term.

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