4bt, 80% daily driver, 10% tow rig FFPW???

[gixxer]

First off I'd like to say hello to everyone let you know how helpful and informative this form has been so far. I am a newbie to PW's, but seriously interested in purchasing one.

I've spent countless hours over the past month combing this and other forms learning about PW's trying to find out what needs to be done to make it a daily driver in today's world. The following is what I believe to be true from what I have discovered so far and my intentions for the FFPW.

I'll try to keep this short, 80% of the PW's life will be spent daily driven used to go to work (16 mls rnd trip) and trips to Home Depot basic truck stuff. The other 20% of it's duties will be towing a 21.5' ski boat (5000 lbs w/ trailer, fuel, toys) to the marina and back (bout 15 min. away) and trips to one of the lakes with in an hour away. The lakes are located in the foothills and will involve some pretty good grades. Another duty will be occasional (once or twice a mnth) one hour freeway trips (one way 70-75mph) to see and help my dad.

So now that you know how it will be used I would like to quickly discuss my finding on how to make a PW do all this.

• First I like the idea of a 4bt (I am around and drive large diesel trucks at work).
• 5 spd OD trans. (either NV 4500 or ZF-42)
• NP 205 or 241 centered (drive line) t-case.
• Centered axle from WC.
• 4.89 gearing
• 4 wheel disc brakes w/ hydroboost, hanging pedals.
• Power steering.

I plan on keeping it stock looking inside and out, but with modern drive train and brakes (Restomod). Basically taking after Paul from NY's "Bumblebee" project.

Sorry for being long winded, but I can't seem to find much info on someone using theirs as I intend to use mine. So the questions is, knowing all the above will the PW perform it's duties with the given upgrades or am I wasting my time doing any further research. Thanks for any help.

[MoparFreak69]

Sounds like a pretty decent combo.
The 241HD can be readily found behind the NV4500 and is stout enough to handle its duties. A regular 241 would probably be fine, but if you have the choice between the standard 241 and the HD version I would go with the HD in a heartbeat. When I did a trans swap on my 98 Ram 2500 I took an auto out and put an NV4500 in. The auto had the 241 while the NV4500 had the 241HD. The input splines are different (cant recall if its count or shaft size) between the auto and manual t-cases so that is something to watch out for. You would be time ahead to get a matched set.
The engine adapter will be the same one used behind the 5.9, but they are starting to get pretty hard to find, at least around here. Im sure if you have a contact in the business then you can probably locate the parts fairly easily. I believe flywheel will also just transfer right over between the 2.

As with any swap it is advisable to check local smog regulations. Here in Ada county in Idaho anything built before 1964 is exempt from emission testing. Pretty much the rest of Idaho does not require any emissions testing at all so swapping is pretty much a pick and choose deal. Your area may be different so that is definately high on priority list of checking to do before you spend any money. Make sure you see it in Black and White also, dont go off of your brother's friends' uncle's sister remembered it being this way, you usually wind up with misleading information. Emission fines are expensive, a copy of the printed regs is much cheaper in comparison.

[Ron in Indiana]

You're best bet is to follow Paul's lead and do whatever he suggests. I've seen his trucks and have been to his place. He knows 4bt conversions like the back of his hand having done all his trucks with Cummins power. Paul is a good friend of mine also and he won't steer you wrong. Not saying others who have done the same swap aren't capable but Paul has his work documented. He also has the time to help you with ANY question. If you need his email I can forward it to you by email. Paul does not use this forum. Good luck with your project. Be prepared to spend some $$$$.

[gixxer]

Thank you both for your responses.

MoparFreak glad you mentioned there is a HD version of the NV 4500, first I've heard of it. I will now be putting that on my list of ideal parts to have. Is that a Dodge or GM version? I would like to keep it all Dodge, but if it's a GM part and is more stout then I'll go for it. Ideally I would like to find a wrecked Dodge truck with a 6bt and pull the trans. adapter, trans, and T-case all in one shot. If I am correct this should all bolt right up to the 4bt with out a bunch of adapter hassles.

Ron, thank you for the invitation to pick Paul's brain a bit, I am sure he'll appreciate it. LOL funny I have all three of his builds saved on my PC as well as Carbell Garbee's, Mc Infantry's and several pages of Charles Talberts "mseriesbuilder" website as well as a few others.

My basic Idea is to buy the truck this time next year (saving $$ now), drive it with the stock drive train for a year while I am collecting parts. Then once I have all the parts I can possibly think of (sure I'll be missing something, lol) I'll down the truck and start the conversion. If he doesn't mind could you tell me how he use's his trucks ie... any towing, long freeway trips etc... I am really trying to get an idea of how others use their trucks.

$$$ - I plan on spending $10-12k on a stock un-restored truck. Then I figure around another $6-10k on the convertion and modifications. Then another $5k on restoration parts. Beats spending $40-$50k on something you can't work on yourself, and we'll never be as cool as an old classic truck. IMHO!

[maineSS]

Some added considerations:

Look for decent sheetmetal and frame- fixing up a beater is the MOST expensive way to go, even if your time is free.

Tires and wheels- There's a pressing need for wheels wider than 6.5" that will mount radial tires. I use radial Yokohama Geolander ST's on the original split ring wheels with tubes on the street, but I'm not doing 70 mph with heavy loads for hour after freeway hour. I have to air down to 34 PSI to avoid excessive crowning due to the narrow rim- the Geolanders should have an 8" rim. If you look into custom rims, remember that they have to match the characteristics of the original wheel to get the correct scrub radius for the front suspension- very important for steering safety and wheel bearing life. You may want to consider more modern axles if lots of highway driving is planned.

Suspension and steering- The PW frameside steering is very prone to "bump steer" which gets real interesting at high speeds. Combined with super stiff springing, you really, really don't want to do high speed bumps. Another good argument for a modern axle with cross-vehicle steering, and a good look at your load vs spring requirements. There was an article in 4 Wheeler & Offroad awhile back that covered an M37 buildup (the "Dumpster" Project) using coilover shocks and a modern Dodge front & Chevy rear axle for a trail-oriented rig- it will be interesting to see how that plays out in the real world,see http://www.4wheeloffroad.com/project...m37/index.html and http://www.4wheeloffroad.com/project...ing/index.html , (if these links don't work, Google them).

Crash Protection- Zero and None. The primary reason Dodge stopped U.S. Flatfender PW manufacture was that the cab had insufficient room to meet 1968 safety regs. You will get badly hurt even in a low speed crash, because all you'll hit is steel and glass. The steering column is a killer- no collapsability means it will spear you right thru the chest after you bend that skinny steering wheel around it with your outstretched arms. About the only thing you can do is install a 3 or 4 point safety belt and hope it works. When I installed my power steering, I added some angle between the Toyota box and the Postal Jeep column so that it will hopefully won't get pushed straight into me in the event of a frame impact. Will it work? Hopefully, I'll never find out.

Things have sped up quite a bit since the PW left the highway in 1968. You can still do okay in somewhat original trim in low speed zones in town, dirt roads, etc, but if you intend to run on the Super Slab, quite a bit of re-engineering will be needed.

[gixxer]

ManieSS - Agree that good sheet metal and frame are essential. I found a really clean PW bout an hour 1/2 away but wasn't able to make a move on it. Sold on E-bay for $8,900. Looked to have good paint even. So that's what I am hoping to find. May take some time and patience, but I am in no rush.

I appreciate your honesty, that's all I was looking for when I posted. I don't want to take out a loan for a new truck or any truck for that matter. So the way I see it I have two options. Buy a 3 or 4 yr. old truck that may look good now but will loose it's luster in another 3 or 4 years. Or Build a cool classic truck whose style will never be out. I was considering tri-five chevy's, 40's chevy's, and 67-72 chevys until my dad reminded me of a neighbor that had a PW (can't remember which variant). I do remember playing on it with the neighborhood kids (don't tell anyone). This will also be a Father son project so looking forward that.

As far as safety, you have a good point and it would be true of any old truck or car for that matter. I guess it's no more risk then riding a 400 lbs motorcycle with a 150 hp. Just hope the other guys driving a Honda civic. LOL.

Thank you guys again, I have already gotten some great advise and will take it all inconsideration. Please keep it coming as I have a lot to learn.

[MoparNorm]

Thank you both for your responses.

MoparFreak glad you mentioned there is a HD version of the NV 4500, first I've heard of it.

I think he said HD version of the Transfer Case, not the NV4500???

[MoparFreak69]

I think he said HD version of the Transfer Case, not the NV4500???

Correct

The 241HD is the t-case I mentioned.
The NV4500 comes in a couple flavors, biggest difference is input shaft size and first gear. GM 4500's had a smaller input shaft but I believe they can be had with a slightly lower first gear. The Dodge 4500 (diesel version) has a very stout input shaft and the gears are quite good for a diesel. The only thing to be aware of is that some of the older versions had an OD gear problem that can be fixed with an update kit. The problems crop up when towing very heavy loads at higher speeds (60+), the gear likes to walk off the shaft.

[MoparNorm]

Correct

The 241HD is the t-case I mentioned.
The NV4500 comes in a couple flavors, biggest difference is input shaft size and first gear. GM 4500's had a smaller input shaft but I believe they can be had with a slightly lower first gear. The Dodge 4500 (diesel version) has a very stout input shaft and the gears are quite good for a diesel. The only thing to be aware of is that some of the older versions had an OD gear problem that can be fixed with an update kit. The problems crop up when towing very heavy loads at higher speeds (60+), the gear likes to walk off the shaft.

The kit fixes the shaft nut that likes to walk off the end...kind of problematic when you think about it... = )

The first few years of the GM version had a 6.xx to 1 granny gear option.

[maineSS]

Another thing for a daily driver that needs attention are the windshield wipers.

The original individual vacuum or Bosch electric motors are barely adequate for light rain. Heavy rain, freezing rain, or snow will leave you on the side of the road. I once had one of my Bosch motors (driver side, of course!) actually catch fire as I was driving home one rainy night.

I bought a cable-operated kit, but haven't fitted it yet. Newport Engineering has been looking at bringing out a linkage-type setup, but haven't made any hardware. Charles at M-Series may have some advice on this. It's another 60 year old item that needs to be updated to today's world.

You will likely find it easier to locate a flatbed than a pickup body. If you can get a good cab and frame truck, think about having the pickup bed made up at a later date- that's what the previous owner did with mine, and it came out reasonably well. Tailgates are available as repro items.

[Charles Talbert]

Based on what the original poster said he intended to use the truck for, my main concern would be running out of vitamins with a 4BT in a towing application. We always used the 4BTA, a bit more power and torque over the 4BT. It does great in a daily driver and modest loading on highway and is plenty of grunt for off road. The hilly terrain, towed load, and 70-75MPH you mentioned; I would think twice before deciding on a 4BT. You can set it up for increased fuel delivery for some gain, but that just never works as well as using an engine with enough power and torque to do the job without tampering with the fuel delivery. With current fuel prices, you surely want the best economy you can get. Having an engine working at near 100% capacity to achieve the needed output doesn't do economy any favors.

[gixxer]

Charles, I was hoping to hear your opinion on this post and actually I would differently look for the 4bta (should have put an "a" at the end). I have no experience with this motor and that is my main reason for asking how others thought it would do given how I plan on using the truck.

My brother owned a 05 or 06 Dodge with a Diesel. You could hardly tell we even had a boat behind us while towing with that thing.

As far as the 4 cyl. (4bt"a") I've been reading that it is fairly easy to achieve 200hp and 400 ft.lbs out of it while at the same time improving the MPG. This would be my target. I would love to hear any comments or experiences you may have regarding this and how well you think it would do pulling a load up modest grades.

Between this post and the "Gas vs Diesel" debate going on in the Conversion thread you guys have me all confused, not sure which way to go . LOL :-)

Guys I appreciate all the feed back, tires and wind shield wipers were not at the top of my concern list until you brought it up. They will be added to the to do list.

[maineSS]

One of the things you'll be doing a LOT of work on early on is the front axle- most have been sadly neglected. Since the design has been out of production for 50+ years, certain parts are getting quite scarce, notably the axleshafts. They run in bronze bushings (which are still available), but the journal surface that contacts the bushing wears, which requires either a new axle, or some sort of resurface & re-heat treatment. You can cut down and respline an M37 driverside axle to replace the PW pass side axle, but finding an NOS PW driverside axle is very, very difficult nowdays.

Another thing to inspect is the condition of the ball on the axlehousing. If it's heavily rusted & pitted, it'll tear up the felt seal on the knuckle, and leak all over your front tire. JB Weld can repair a minor problem, but large scale damage means another housing.

The Kingpins originally used bronze bushings- you're much better off with a roller bearings top and bottom. Also look at the spindles- these often need replacement, they're still reasonably available.

The axle seals will likely need replacement. If they're leaking diff oil into the knuckle, it's usually due to being thrashed out by a worn axleshaft. Replacing the bushings and seal on a worn shaft is false economy, both will be destroyed within five miles by the bouncing shaft.

Installing a set of lockout hubs should be your 1st modification- they save wear on the axleshafts/bushings and give you a noticeable bump in mileage.

If you're serious about lots of Highway use, you should really look at more modern axles, either Dana 70's or the ones mentioned in the "Dumpster" links. Yes, it's a lot of work and expense, but you solve the Wheel & Tire problem, the Bumpsteer problem, and the Antique Parts problem simultaneously, and for a high speed daily driver, these are not small problems.

Another thing that you'll want to change is the mirror situation- the originals feature 3 images as they vibrate, just like Harley Davidson. They're placed perfectly to catch you right in the head as you walk around the truck. I've lost count of the times I've been clipped by these things, one day I'll do something about it....

A lot of the things I've mentioned so far are tolerable for vehicles that see occasional use. If they're in your face day after day, you will at some point start making changes, or find another primary vehicle. Since you're in the early stages of Dodge Disease, now is the time to plan your work and work your plan so you're not not overtaken by unforseen events. I agree with your premise that it's ridiculous to pay more than people used to pay for their house for a vehicle that you can't work on and is useful only for transportation. The Car Companies have worked very hard for about 30 years to trap Americans in a continuous debt cycle, unfortunately they've largely suceeded.

[gixxer]

Sounds like a guy in my position would be best off finding a salvaged late model 2500 Dodge truck with a hemi., NV 4500 5 spd, HD NP 241, and axles w/ brakes and try to make it work in the PW. Does anyone know some one that has done this? I guess I should save that question for another thread.

Thank you again for all the advise!

[maineSS]

Ocasionally people have dropped the PW cab & bed onto a modern chassis, but it seems difficult to make that look right, mainly because of the A-arm front suspension. There's a 2009 article in 4 Wheel & Offroad (http://www.4wheeloffroad.com/feature...gon/index.html -you may have to Google this) and another in this month's issue featuring M37 buildups with modern axles and leaf springs that would make a good starting point. The M37 is narrower than the PW, so the tires extend beyond the fenders by a couple inches, but that probably wouldn't happen with the PW.