4bt, 80% daily driver, 10% tow rig FFPW???

[MoparFreak69]

I am working on putting my '59 PW onto a 97 Ram 2500 chassis. As long as you find a donor chassis built before '07 (I think) it will have a live axle front and rear if its 4wd. The front will be coil spring after '94, but with the ride quality they provide I am willing to skimp on original looks for comfort in that aspect. I have my '90 Wrangler if I want to ride in a 'truck'.

[MoparNorm]

I am working on putting my '59 PW onto a 97 Ram 2500 chassis. As long as you find a donor chassis built before '07 (I think) it will have a live axle front and rear if its 4wd. The front will be coil spring after '94, but with the ride quality they provide I am willing to skimp on original looks for comfort in that aspect. I have my '90 Wrangler if I want to ride in a 'truck'.

The 2500 and 3500 with both have a live axle, even with coil springs. It's the Jeep Coil-Link suspension design and it works great.
Only the 1500 went to IFS.
2009 and later 1500's also have the Jeep Coil-Link at the rear axle.

[gixxer]

My dad mentioned doing the same thing, but I want to keep the original look as much as possible. You'd loose the PTO winch (unless you plan on graphing it on) which I think really makes the these trucks unique. Right now I am thinking Dana 60 axles from a 60's or 70's Dodge 3/4 ton and a NV 4500 / t-case out of late 90's Dodge 3/4 ton. I'll probably change my mind a couple of times between now and the time I start the re-power conversion, but I am debating between a 4bta, 318 gasser or a 392 Hemi. I know those three are about as far apart from one another as you could possible get, but I think the 4bta would be great on gas and would be different, just not sure it would serve all my needs. The 392 Hemi would be awesome (kind'a "what Dodge should of done" kind of build). The 318 is the fall back option if all else fails. It's cheaper, easier to find, and probably what I should do. I just want to be able to look back after it's all done and say WOW now that's different. I'd also like to make it nice enough to take to all the local car shows just for fun. I live in Nor-Cal and there are car shows all around here all summer long. So that's the general plan.

[maineSS]

You definitely want to thoroughly research your options in building highspeed daily driver. If you get an original runner, your first drive will show you how far vehicle tech has advanced since 1946- 1968.

You'll very likely need a new wiring harness, and better headlights for highspeed night driving. Cabell Garbee had a writeup on his site about using Hella headlights in his M37.

The winch is a piece of equipment that usually got used hard and put away wet. I had to completely rebuild mine, did a writeup that's in the archives somewhere...http://www.powerwagonadvertiser.com/...ad.php?t=10589

[gixxer]

[QUOTE=maineSS;86892]You definitely want to thoroughly research your options in building highspeed daily driver. If you get an original runner, your first drive will show you how far vehicle tech has advanced since 1946- 1968.

Totally agree! This is what I am spending my evenings doing now and reason I originally decided to post. I am getting the feeling many do not use their PW's as a main vehicle and it's more of a hobby. I certainly do not have any illusions that it's going to be easy or cheap to turn a 40-60 yr old truck into a modern daily driver, or if it can even be done. I find myself in a time in my life where I just can't see spending what it cost to buy a brand new vehicle, keep it for several years and turn around and sell it or trade it in for a newer one. I love the look and feel of a nicely restored vehicle. Cars and Trucks of the 40's and 50's had a style and character that has been lost in newer vehicles. This is much deeper for me then just simply wanting to fix up a old heap and use it for trips to the dump. Personally I am fed up and disappointed with modern vehicle design. With their plastic interiors and square boxy exteriors. What happened?? I am in my late 30's so I don't remember them when they were new, but I love going to car shows and seeing how much nicer vehicles were made back then. Perfect example, went to a car show in Danville which is a very high end community. At this show sits a brand new Ferrari California (nice car right) this car is somewhere around $100k + or more. Across from it was this absolutely beautiful car (sorry not sure what it was, think it was an Auburn). After further inspection of both, my buddy and I turned and both said I can't believe how much nicer the fit and finish and overall look of quality is on this 30's era (hope that's right) vehicle. Not knocking anyone who may have a Ferrari their beautiful cars, but if spent $100k on a car it better look like I spent $100k on it. Any way that's my rant for the day. See pics below to see if you agree.

[Charles Talbert]

Realization, it kicks in after a while

Sounds like you have arrived there pretty much. If you are wanting a really nice truck that can be counted on to last for many years; you can achieve that. You are right, it can't be done on the cheap and you definitely need to start out and follow through with the best products and design going into it and throughout the build. You can save much on labor if you can furnish it; if you need help with design and build to get the product you want, that is much different as far as cost. We have been there and done all this; it depends on what you want, and stricking to that program through out the process. My experience has told me many times that you can buy a current production vehicle for less cash than you can build the best truck on a power wagon platform. You are correct in that you will not have anywhere near the quality in that current production vehicle that you will in a properly built truck that is designed and built the way you want it.

I'm sure this will be met with many differing opinions about so called value builds and the like. Just remember this, a value build is just fine; nothing at all wrong with it if that is what you want in the end. Your description of what you want to end up with doesn't sound like what I would consider a value built truck.

This makes me think of a simple shovel. You can run to Wal-Mart and buy a current Chinese model for just a few bucks. If you have anything more than the occassional light duty project to use it on; either the steel blade will crack or break, or the handle will break as you bear down doing the work at hand. You can keep replacing that value built shovel with another, and another through the years, and so on. On the other hand, you can look back in the shed and pull out the old shovel that Dad or Grandad had for years; clean it up a bit, sharpen the much used cutting edge, sand and refinish the handle; and you will have a tool that will still perform many hard digging task and be right there waiting on the next one when needed. You may even have to replace the the deteriorated handle with a new quality ashe wood handle, but that will last another lifetime plus, if properly installed and cared for. This is just like a vehicle, with good refurbishing and proper updates; it will take you a long way. We just have to realize that the best quality, needed updates can't be done cheaply these days as you mentioned, and be expected to last.

When MaineSS said consider all options, he is very wise; go through every component doing the proper upgrades in that area while you are into it, considering what it needs to meet criteria for that daily driver you desire. Thinking of the longivity of a power plant and drive train is very important, as is an engine that will give you all that plus the power and torque you need along with the best fuel economy that can be expected, while it's capable of being as maintenace free as possible for the long haul.

Much to consider; hope it works out for you just the way you want.

[maineSS]

It seems you favor long term value over instant gratification- that's good, as a project like this will severely test you at times.

A lot of people have a grand vision of wheeling a PW down the interstate at 75 mph after an engine transplant and a tire change- wrong! It's been said the Devil's in the details- and the PW is filled with details, as I've been at pains to point out.

You'll need to assess your abilities, finances, and comittment before buying a truck. What a lot of people overlook- especially 1st timers- is how far they can go before getting positive results back from their build. Some can retrieve a rusty frame from a field and be content to spend 10 years before driving it. Other people's dream will be For Sale a month after they bought it.

If this is your first rodeo, I'd suggest getting something that can move under it's own power, or can be made to do so reasonably cheaply. Psychologically, you'll think you're in the Homestretch- even if the finish line is still years away.

What you're aiming for is by no means impossible. Just take some of the money, and some of the time you'd spend earning that money, and apply it to your build. Don't be afraid to learn new skills like welding and bodywork- they will come in handy later on.

In your case, I'd suggest upgrading axles, brakes, suspension, and steering first. This way, you won't experience constant failures from overstressed parts when you step up the Hp & torque. Next would be wheels/tires and driveline, with engine and tranny last. Build from the rear axle forward, and your progress will be steady, without parts explosions.

There's a lot of experience on this Board, don't hesitate to ask for help!

[gixxer]

Charles and MaineSS, you guys just nailed it on the head!

Charles I love your shovel analogy, it is perfect and I could not have phrased it any better. That is exactly the vision for my build. I had a huge grin on my face while reading it and will no doubt refer back to your words in times of build challenges.

MaineSS I completely appreciate all your wisdom and insight. These are the types of items newbies like myself need to know so we can have a complete understanding of what it is we are getting ourselves into. I have much to learn, but am having a ball learning it! I will definitely be turning to you and others on this form as the build gets closer.

Thank you again for taking the time to answer my questions and en-lighting us newbies.

[Desoto61]

Complete agree with MainSS, I already have a play car that I can drive and fix. If I tried to start with my Power Wagon I'd have probably bought a better truck by now that I could drive, or at least restore much more quickly.

Also while the investment in the truck is going to be big, don't forget the investment in support tools and equipment you will need/want to allow you to complete some of these tasks on your own.

If this isn't something you see yourself doing a lot then it may pay to have some of the big work farmed out.

I had a nice little 30-gallon air compressor which was fine for changing tires and such. I ended up buying a $1800 80-gallon unit to allow me to run bigger tools for blasting/cutting/sanding etc.

I consider it a long term investment in a hobby I enjoy, but if you don't see another project in your future then it's $1800 you could have spent on getting the truck done.

[maineSS]

What you're thinking of is the most difficult build to pull off- lots of people start out thinking this way, but soon modify their aspirations.

The reason I've gone on and on about axles is that it's the key stumbling block. If you stick with the OEM units, you'll find the wheel & tire issue to be a knotty one. You can run radials and a tube, but I wouldn't want to try it under conditions of high ambient temp and high speeds with a heavy load- that builds a lot of heat in a tire. Presently, I'm trying to figure out a way to use PW centers in a modern 16" tubeless rim- so are a lot of other people. The centers will fit a 16.5" rim, but that's becoming an orphan tire size. If you have custom wheels made, you'll find they're of the non- dished plate center type, which have the wrong offset for the PW steering geometry. There's also the bumpsteer problem up front, along with the really wide turning radius of the closed knuckle design.

The M37 links I posted had two that used different front and rear axles, and one that used Dana 70's with Dana 60 knuckles. Two appear to have a lot of real-world time, while one has a trip to Moab.

The one I'd look at first would be the Dana axle build of Rob Bonney in Phoenix, AZ. He's apparently running 5:87's in the diffs, and using an NP 200 T-case, SM 420 tranny, and a (GASP) 350 Chevy with TBI. Suspension is leaf spring front and rear.

The other rig with years of experience runs a low-pinion Dana 60 from a Chevy truck up front that's been narrowed 3" on the long side to fit the M37 spring width. Rear is a 14-bolt Corporate GM. Tranny is a 4L80 4-spd Auto, T- case is an NP 203 mated to NP 205 with adapter. It's powered by (Double Gasp- I can hear the Hyperventilation starting now!) 454 TBI Chevy. Leaf Springs front/rear, 4:88 gears.

The new build used an '07 3500 Dodge front axle, and a '91 Chevy 3/4 ton rear axle. Tranny was SM 465 with Ranger OD and Stax, power by (Oh, NO- 6.0 Chevy V8). Coilover 3-link up front, leaf rear springs.

[gixxer]

This will be my first rodeo doing a complete restoration / modification of a vehicle. My experiences are limited to basic mechanical up keep such as replacing water pumps, fuel pumps, radiators, replacing the the engine in a 93 Geo prism by myself and putting on a lift kit on a '85 Blazer. So I am for sure no expert. Growing up as a kid my Dad spent much of the weekends working on his '68 Dodge Charger or '73 Barracuda in order to get them ready for the Monday commute. I spent a lot of those weekends handing him tools and helping how ever I could. I look forward to weekends like that again working on this project and hope that pulls me through the frustrating times that are no doubt going to come up.

MaineSS you are definitely keeping my feet planted on the ground. I appreciate your persistence. I feel fairly comfortable in regards to motor, trans, t-case and axle placement (although much more research will have to be done). Re-engineering the steering system has me worried though. Any thoughts on using the steering set up out of a late model truck (if so could you recommend a model year) that could be adapted? Obviously the steering box would most likely have to be relocated to gain the proper leverage. Also (I know we are way off the diesel conversion topic now) you mentioned using the centers out of the stock wheels and putting them in updated hoops (at least that is what I think you referring too) any luck with this. I would like to retain the stock appearance while updating the axles and brakes to Dana 60's or 70's. I'll look into the two you mentioned.

Below is the PW I found on ebay that I missed out on. It ended up selling for $9,900. Since I have found a few others on Craigslist and ebay selling with in my budget that are in about the same condition. I bring this up because I am hoping to find one in much the same running condition to start with. Like you have mentioned in the posts above this would save some time and money for the short term anyway.

[maineSS]

I paid $9K for mine, which wasn't quite as pretty as that one, paintwise, and lacked a winch. It did have a repro pickup bed.

Since you're in Cali, your sheetmetal situation should be better than other parts of the country- you don't want to be doing bigtime rust repairs, as it's very tedious work.

I used a Toyota 4WD minitruck frameside steering PS box and an aftermarket Toyota pitman arm for my truck as it could be made to fit without cutting out the top of the frame as the Saginaw box requires. With crossover steering, you'll have more freedom in PS boxes, most likely. One thing that will affect this is the location of the front shock. The OEM location angles forward, and may present a problem in mounting the box & linkage, but it can be moved back if you're considering other axles. The shock works best when it's directly above the axle from the standpoint of efficiency, and since you're damping hundreds of pounds moving mass, efficiency does matter. The M37 shock inclines rearward, so they don't have the interference possibilty.

I was thinking of using the stock centers on the stock axles with modern tubeless wheels. You will have to use the bolt pattern standard to Dana or whatever axle you select for your wheel choice. The good news there is you will actually have a choice!

[gixxer]

I've been researching the steering upgrade options and so far I like the setup on the M37 you gave me a link to. Seems the most stout. Would require relocation of the front shocks as you touched on (thinking about using same angle, just angled toward the rear???). He used an aftermarket, side mounted, box from a Scout. Also would require some fab to make tabs for mounting pan hard bar etc... not to bad though.

Found a pic. of "mcinfintary's" Carry All that is using D60 front and corp. 14 rear axles. He seems to be using stock Chevy 2500 wheels. Also considering 8 lug bud wheels (front dullie wheels ??). He has stated that he has done several hundred freeway miles with this set up running a 4bt and getting 18 mpg with 4.88's while cruising from 35 - 65 mph. So it looks feasible.

I missed out on another by one day. It was only 45 min.'s away. AHHHHHH!! It looked complete and he only wanted $2k. This is the third I've found in Cal. and your right all have looked in good shape. So fingers crossed.

[maineSS]

You definitely want the drag link from the PS box to go to the passenger side of the axle- longer links have less bump displacement. You might be able to use the M37 shock mounts on the PW frame, but I can't recall anyone trying it. You might want to look at the other M37 links that used Rancho shocks, and try to contact the owners to see what they did, and how it's worked out.

[gixxer]

Coworker just happened to show up to work today driving a 2011 Dodge mega cab w/ a cummins. He states is pushing 500 hp and 8 ft lbs stock. (sounds like a bit much, but WOW if it's true). Anyway I was looking at the steering on it and noticed the steering box was located on the inside of the frame rail with the drag link connecting to the passenger side as you mentioned. This is similar to the M37 in the link you posted. I think the best thing to do would be to locate a complete Dana 60 with this style steering setup out of a salvaged Dodge truck and retro-fitting it. Is there enough room to mount a steering box to the inside of the frame rail if one were running a 4bta or a V8? I ask because I noticed if it were mounted on the outside / top of frame rail it would mandate modification of the inner fender.

I also would like to clarify that the PW will not be my only means of transportation. I also own a econo-box that I drive to work and a sport bike that shares daily driving duties. I mention this only to state that although the PW will not necessarily be driven on a day to day basis, I do want it be driven as such when the desire / need arises.

Charles mentioned the 4bt would probably not be ideal for my situation and that he uses 4bt"a"s. I am still not certain though whether or not he thought a 4bt"a" would be enough (or could be turned up enough) to meet the needs of medium towing duties? Could some one elaborate on this? Just trying to narrow my research. Thank you in advance.