Cummins 4 BT source....

[JimmieD]

Rage, check this link:

http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/Auct...uctionID=10462

Click on 'Lot Catalogue' in the box on the right. several coming up for bid near you 6/21/06

JimmieD

[JimmieD]

Gordon, the 4BT's come in several stock configurations from about 76 hp up to 250 hp. The 4Bt found in most stepvans/breadtrucks is usually 105 hp and about 330 ft lbs torgue. The marine version is I think 250 hp and 550 ft lbs. You can 'bomb' a stepvan engine by causing it to take in more fuel, increasing trubocharger boost, installing water/methanol injection and several other go fast tricks.

These mods would obviously put more load on the engine, but they're very stout engines. Yes, you can get more power out of a modified 4BT than out of a stock 6BT, but 6BT can be heavily modified also. They're the same engine, identical, with one at 3.9L and the other at 5.9L. It's easy math to see that the 4BT can be built to produce 2/3 of whatever 'bombed' 6BT's produce. Not all that hard to exceed the power of a stock 6BT, but there's a penalty in reliability of course and going too far can porcupine rods through the side of the block or rip the head off.

I'll be bombing mine a little but staying conservative for long term reliability: maybe 175-200 hp and 450-550 ft lbs torque.

JimmieD

[The Rage]

Rage, check this link:

http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/Auct...uctionID=10462

Click on 'Lot Catalogue' in the box on the right. several coming up for bid near you 6/21/06

JimmieD

THANKS!!..That's EXACTLY what I'm looking for!. BTW, do these vans come with maintenance records and can you review them beforehand? (I'm waiting as we speak for my bidding permit to be approved). Everything will probably have a ton of miles on them BUT I'm just trying to find one that ain't been rode too hard and put away wet. Something that is or on the verge of being "wo' out".

[JimmieD]

Yes, some come with complete maintenance records. Look in the Lot Catalog and click on an entry there. It wiil display the page for a single item for sale, and usually there's a contact number and name for more info. The guy's with the info have nothing to gain by giving false info as they're just Frito Lay employees, so they can tell you straight up what the condition of a truck is.

NO, THEY ARE NOT ALL HIGH MILEAGE BEATERS! I saw one that had 46K, another with 50K etc. like hardly even broken in for a million mile engine. The deal is they came with a piece of junk Chevy Turbo-400 trans made for passenger cars! Most of these trannies were toasted by 50K, replaced, toasted again and Frito Lay finally [wisely] gave up on them. Beware that some of them are very high mileage so some phone work is worth the bother. Understand that these are $6,500 engines at the least, so don't let a low mileage unit slip out of your fingers for a few more bucks......but you know how much you've got that you can spend. Don't know what the going price is on dovebid though.

The one I just bought and finally drove home yesterday has 146K on it and runs real sweet. I got it for $1050 at a local public auction. Don't tell me prayer doesn't work ha haha! No engine problems at all, and surprisingly powerful going up steep grades in the mountains. They're great engines!!!

I have more info if and when you need it.

JimmieD

[The Rage]

What you paid is just about right for what I"m looking for. Say you had no probs going up the grade eh?. Where do you live if you don't mind asking?

The TH400's were alright for what they were designed for up and including 454 Big Blocks and all the Caddy's mills. But anything "dawged" won't hang together long, including Allisons. (from my skrewl bus driving daze I KNOW)
I figure for the average Joe though, who'd do more light to medium stuff, it'd take quite some time to rack up 50k miles. Would it be stupid to ask IF there were/are 4/5 speed versions of these 4BT box trucks?

Heck, I'd probably just buy one of those trucks for around here/hauling/towing stuff and just sell the C10. Go out and find me a stylish "short" bed 1966 to 1972 OR better yet, that 1951 Willys Pickup with the Corvette motor, Nova suspension, and TH350 eh?

My move up here would've been a breeze IF I'd had even a 15 foot box.

Thanks
Bryan
Joanna, SC

[Charles Talbert]

No more for $6,500

Yes, some come with complete maintenance records. Look in the Lot Catalog and click on an entry there. It wiil display the page for a single item for sale, and usually there's a contact number and name for more info. The guy's with the info have nothing to gain by giving false info as they're just Frito Lay employees, so they can tell you straight up what the condition of a truck is.

NO, THEY ARE NOT ALL HIGH MILEAGE BEATERS! I saw one that had 46K, another with 50K etc. like hardly even broken in for a million mile engine. The deal is they came with a piece of junk Chevy Turbo-400 trans made for passenger cars! Most of these trannies were toasted by 50K, replaced, toasted again and Frito Lay finally [wisely] gave up on them. Beware that some of them are very high mileage so some phone work is worth the bother. Understand that these are $6,500 engines at the least, so don't let a low mileage unit slip out of your fingers for a few more bucks......but you know how much you've got that you can spend. Don't know what the going price is on dovebid though.

The one I just bought and finally drove home yesterday has 146K on it and runs real sweet. I got it for $1050 at a local public auction. Don't tell me prayer doesn't work ha haha! No engine problems at all, and surprisingly powerful going up steep grades in the mountains. They're great engines!!!

I have more info if and when you need it.

JimmieD

I started out buying new Cummins 4BTA's at $6,250, fully dressed ready to install. The very same engines now cost us over $7,100 since Cummins latest cost increase went into effect. It never stops.

[The Rage]

I started out buying new Cummins 4BTA's at $6,250, fully dressed ready to install. The very same engines now cost us over $7,100 since Cummins latest cost increase went into effect. It never stops.

'Course the new ones are supposedly the only engines that are "low-sulphur" ready. That's what makes one of these mills, IF they've been maintained, a bargain for the average consumer just looking for something economical and basically trouble-free to drive.

The risky part of it all is that you wind-up 2 weeks later with a blown motor. For your hard-earned grand to 2500, you basically have a storage shed the NeighborHood Ordinance Patrol Elite(NOPE) give you grief about.

However, one has only to call, check maintenance records, and the what to do your best to find a "goodie"

[JimmieD]

I hear ya, Charles, but you and me know it does finally quit one day! Sooner the better Ha haha!

Most of the breadvans/Fritos trucks are going to be TH400's. They are the Pontiac version of same. You can get a Cummins adapter plate and use the SM465 GM trans which is a very stout 4 speed. There's another later GM auto trans that works better than TH400 as it's stronger but I don't know GM nomenclature. I think it's their diesel truck trans. That might save some fabrication work.

I decided to go all Dodge and got a Cummins/Dodge adapter plate which bolts to back of engine. The Cummins/Dodge bellhousing then bolts to this, and you also need the Cummins/Dodge flywheel, and Cummins clutch slave cylinder. If your vehicle is not currently hydraulic clutch then you have to mount a hydraulic clutch master cylinder also. If it's an automatic changeover you'd need clutch pedal and etc.

There is a way to use the original Dodge slave cylinder on trucks so equipped and I'll be doing that. I have a NV4500 o'drive 5 speed I'll be using. It has 0.78 : 1 5th gear ratio. With my 4.1 Dana 60HD rearend and 31.5 inch diameter tires I'll be at 2,274 rpm at 65 mph. That's the sweet spot on 4BT for torque & mileage. I'll be getting a 3,200 rpm governor spring [stock is around 2,500 rpm] so that this combo will run up to 90 mph at 3,149 rpm and top out at close to 100.

Modifications to 4BT are possible. They use the same Bosch VE radial fuel pump as 1st Generation Cummins 6BT Dodges. Bosch POD [Prince of Darkness, what were these guys thinking?] injectors at about $300 will add 38 hp to stock 105hp. An Old smokey Power Pin for the fuel pump adds 16 horsepower. 3,200 rpm governor spring [$12] increases top end revs. HY35 9cm turbocharger [used wrecker's price] out of an '01-'02 Dodge Cummins automatic equipped truck adds some more go. Toss in a Snows Water/Methanol injection kit [$700-$1,200] and you have a 3.9L 4 cylinder Cummins that pumps out an easy 180-200 hp with at least 500 ft. lbs of torque. In my combination described above this will still give 30 mpg mileage on the hiway!

The 4BT engine weighs about 750 lbs, or the approx. same as a big block Chevy. You need adequate springs for the extra weight. Due to the serious torque numbers you need a very heavy duty rear end and a stout driveline.

I had to drive the Fritos truck from Orland, CA up through the mountains almost to the Oregon border. If it wasn't for traffic I doubt it would have ever gotten below 55mph except on one long grade where it held 45 at the crest. These 18 ft. vans weigh about 7,800 pounds empty, and I was towing my Chevy LUV behind. Temp gauge stayed dead center, and 65 lbs oil pressure all the way. Not bad....

JimmieD

[djester]

Frito-Lay Vans

****, Jim, I wish you lived in Indiana so I could sit at your feet and learn about these things!! Sure is interesting and I enjoy your knowledge and experience. You wouldn't consider moving, would you? :-)

Dave

[JimmieD]

Hey, Dave, your overestimation of me is flattering regardless of however it may be lacking in actual fact! I got this stuff off of the internet through diligent searches and it's not some overwhelming knowledge I carry around between my ears. For me the grey matter is more on a level of, "Hungry." "Eat food." and other like rocket science ha haha!

The reason for the last post is that a description of how to 'Bomb' a 4BT Cummins isn't easily found or spelled out in very many places, so I wanted to leave at least some hints here for those that are into it.

BTW: working on UPS shipments during the end of this week and will gather info for you as I am able. Had to strike while the iron was smoldering on the above mentioned 4BT!

JimmieD

[djester]

If you don't quit worrying about shipping stuff, I'm going to quit corresponding with you! :-) I honestly don't care if it is six months from now -- or forever, for that matter.

Even though I don't understand half what I read, I enjoy reading your posts. Always sounds like fun!

Dave

[JimmieD]

Ha ha, thanks Dave!

JimmieD

[CREEPING DEATH]

Modifications to 4BT are possible. They use the same Bosch VE radial fuel pump as 1st Generation Cummins 6BT Dodges. Bosch POD [Prince of Darkness, what were these guys thinking?] injectors at about $300 will add 38 hp to stock 105hp. An Old smokey Power Pin for the fuel pump adds 16 horsepower. 3,200 rpm governor spring [$12] increases top end revs. HY35 9cm turbocharger [used wrecker's price] out of an '01-'02 Dodge Cummins automatic equipped truck adds some more go. Toss in a Snows Water/Methanol injection kit [$700-$1,200] and you have a 3.9L 4 cylinder Cummins that pumps out an easy 180-200 hp with at least 500 ft. lbs of torque. In my combination described above this will still give 30 mpg mileage on the hiway!

The 4BT engine weighs about 750 lbs, or the approx. same as a big block Chevy. You need adequate springs for the extra weight. Due to the serious torque numbers you need a very heavy duty rear end and a stout driveline.

POD a/k/a "Prince of Darkness" is what the Lucas-brand injectors are called. Ask any British car or motorcycle driver why...

CD

[MoparNorm]

Even though I don't understand half what I read, I enjoy reading your posts. Always sounds like fun!

Dave

It's OK Dave, Jim doesn't understand half of what he posts either....ha!ha! Love ya JimmieD!
MN

[JimmieD]

It's OK Dave, Jim doesn't understand half of what he posts either....ha!ha! Love ya JimmieD!
MN

I'll have you know, Mopar Norm, that I'm perfectly capable of speaking for myself! It's just that you do a much better job of it most of the time :~ )