Why buy a Diesel?

[Jonas Smith]

I have fallen prey to thinking that a diesel truck is "economical", what a load of crap. That may have been true in the mid 90's but no more. They are more expensive to purchase, more expensive to maintain, parts when it breaks down are outrageous, and diesel is more expensive than gas. Longevity you say? I say BS. I've replaced 3 lift pumps and one injection pump and an oil pressure sender before 100K.
I miss my crappy old '87 crewcab with 350 EFI gas motor. Worst thing to happen was I replaced the motor @ 250kmi, but it was 1/2 the cost (Installed!) of the injection pump on my Dodge 3500.

[Charles Talbert]

No such luck here

I've installed a bunch in M37's & am currently doing our 1st install in a C3-PW-126. I've had 0 problems with Cummins engines & all clients have been well pleased. I understand there have been problems with the later all electronic engines & that the injection pump used on those is extremely costly. It is a good idea to use a lubrication supplement in fuel, fuel suppliers have produced literature saying it isn't needed, but I'll have to disagree. I've run Cummins engines for 40 years, have experienced nothing but the best service. I have a 220 Cummins now that is a 1957 year model, had it's 1st complete overhaul in 1978, still running today. Uses no oil, has had no money spent since '78 except for 1 water pump & the routine oil & filter changes. The later all electronic stuff is more trouble prone & repairs cost more when problems come up. The mechanical engines like the 4BTA & 6BTA engines that we use in our repower packages have proved very reliable & economical to date. Don't let 1 bad apple spoil the whole crop.

[Sickcall]

Jonas, I would have to agree, that diesel trucks are not more economical to operate and I am sure we will hear different from the pro diesel crowd. I once calculated the difference in diesel fuel cost over regular gas,with the mileage factor, and it would take over 300,000 miles of driving just to pay for the diesel upgrade from the dealer. I am sure this has changed considerably of late because of the high cost of the diesel fuel. The other additional cost is the oil changes which are much more frequent and costly on a diesel. Changing 14 qts of oil every 3000 miles is not saving anyone any money as far as I can see. About 75 bucks at Jiffey Lube.

I have owned 3 diesels to date and only own them because I want a four door pick-up truck. They are about the only engine available in a 4 door on the used market in a heavy duty truck. Do the engines last longer, yes I can not disagree with that. But who needs an engine that out lasts the vehicle? The only true necessity for a diesel in my opinion is for someone who does a lot of towing/hauling, and I mean alot.

[Gordon Maney]

My Cummins powered truck goes twice as far on a gallon of fuel as my V10 Dodge could, and the V10 truck had some very expensive repairs necessary in a shorter mileage period. First, a pair of cylinder heads, then another pair of cylinder heads, and also a short block, all before 36,000 miles.

I have nearly 100,000 miles on my 2001 HO Cummins and it has required nothing in the way of repairs. I still have the same lift pump, and have done nothing more than changing oil and the several filters used by the engine.

Charles, tell us a bit more about the pre-computer diesels. It would be interesting to learn more about them, how recently they were made, and any other thoughts you wanted to share.

You mention a 220 Cummins..... what sort of truck do you have that uses that engine?

[HWooldridge]

I'm sure many folks have an experience to share and will come down on one side or the other...

My 93 Ford dually crew cab had the 7.3 diesel without turbo. It was on its way to 300K when I sold it and the one problem I experienced was that the cruise control quit one day. I never fixed it and drove with my foot. I changed oil filters only every 3000 miles with both oil and filter every 6000. This never seemed to adversely affect it but most of those miles were open highway.

We have a family friend who owned a '94 Ford with turbo and she had nothing but trouble with it. However, their family was not known for mechanical ability or preventive maintenance - they used to have a nice John Deere tractor with loader that was rusting away because they ran it out of oil one day - so who can say how many "problems" are brought on by a careless owner?

I drove a new '97 Ford diesel with turbo for a few days and it was so noisy that I took it back to the dealer and got a 460 gasser, which I am still driving today. It is a gas hog but has 160K miles and runs well - although it needs a good tune-up from someone with diagnostic capability.

I occasionally haul some pretty heavy trailers and like a diesel but for the average person, I still think a gas powerplant is the better choice for economy and ease of service.

[steved]

From the other side of the fence...

My dad has a 99 2500 CTD with 252k on it...only replaced two LPs, fan support bearing, and oil pressure sending unit...changes oil every 5k...The only other thing he has done to that truck is replace the clutch at 200k, balljoints at 86k, and had the fifth gear fixed on the 5spd. He has LESS THAN $2000 in repairs for all those miles...and he uses it. He gets 21mpg.

My 99 had 201k when I traded it...2 LPs and transmissions were my only expense...I got around 18mpg average with a couple 25mpg+ trips in that 200k...the tranny was the big expense at $3k, but it lasted too...

This 2004.5 I have, had approximately $5k in warranty work done to it when I first got it...CP3 was replaced ($3k), clutch issues, etc...I currently have 92k on it and have did nothing to it out of pocket...I have added a bunch of goodies (non-performance) and routinely get 19mpg highway (16-17mpg in town) running a 6spd and 4.10s rears (have gotten as high as 23mpg)...I actually get better mileage than ny boss's Audi A4. Oh, and I change my oil every 10k miles...

You either get a good one or a bad one though...the newer the diesel, the less reliable they seem to get...our 99s were simply good trucks. The 95 CTD my dad owned would routinely get him 28mpg (hand calc'd) on the highway...it never gave an issue.

While your 350CI gasser might be better for your needs...the fact I need to hook to a trailer weighing 8k (trailer and M37) and I can pull almost 15mpg out on the highway towing that trailer and not be worried about whether I will need to get into the slow lane, is well worth the added cost of owning a diesel...It is all about what you need...what works for you...some of us would not be happy with a gasser towing/hauling what we do, as regularly as we do...

If I didn't have the M37, didn't drive cross country ever couple months, and didn't want to keep the truck till it's dead, I would have probably bought a 1500 ram...again it is all about need...I rack too many miles up too quick to have a gasser IMO...

steved

[CGarbee]

Diesel and gas cost the same in my area... I can run biodiesel that I make in the garage from used fryer oil for about 85 cents a gallon without any noticable change in performance. I'm getting 17mpg when running 75mph in my Cummins 4BT powered M37 with a M101 trailer in tow on the highway, and the same milage as a general rule with a mix of city/offroad driving (ie, when I'm not on a trip).
Back when I first did the conversion from the stock flathead to a diesel in my M37, I figured that it would take seven years to pay off the differnce in cost between rebuilding a dead flathead and converting to a diesel, and that was based on my driving the truck much less than I actually am...

For a new truck: I'll go with a diesel. I like the increased milage (ie, range between fill ups) and lack of emisionsions inspections... And yes, I am the kind of person who drives a vehicle until the body falls off the frame and the engine is the only thing left...

[steved]

lack of emisionsions inspections...

This might be coming to an end with the 07s...they have a bunch of emission regulations to meet...I can't see them not enforcing some inspection of the 07s...

steved

[CGarbee]

This might be coming to an end with the 07s...they have a bunch of emission regulations to meet...I can't see them not enforcing some inspection of the 07s...

steved

True, but so far our legislature has made no moves toward amending the inspection laws to account for this... and we don't have emission testing for gas engines in 2/3 of the counties in my state...
Even when we do have to worry about emission inspections for diesels (yes, I agree that it will happen to us at some point), I would still go with the diesel for a lot of the "pro" reasons previously stated by everyone...

[Sickcall]

You are right Gordon as there are many "pro" reasons to own a diesel, but in my opinion not economics. How much is the diesel option at the dealer these days, 5,000 dollars? Last week diesel was 50 cents more a gallon than regular but today it is only 10. Even with the cost of fuel being the same how many miles would you have to drive for the diesel to pay for itself?

[Charles Talbert]

They aren't for everyone

It's up to the individuals personal needs. 4 cylinders in an M37 will do 20+ MPG in normal driving conditions at 55MPH. 3,000 mile oil changes aren't necessary in a diesel unless you are doing lots of short trip runs or some other special circumstance situations. You should be able to go at least twice that distance if using premium quality oil & filters. True some cheaper oils don't have the additive packages blended in that will protect for the extended drain intervals. A bypass filter added to the full flow filter will significantly extend drain intervals too, oil analysis has proven that beyond question. You will likely discover more advantages to diesel power if you take the time to explore all the avenues you can take advantage of by using diesel engines over gasoline. Longivity alone is a big issue over gas engines if the engine is properly maintained. I've never owned a diesel that cost more to maintain than a gasser.

[Jonas Smith]

Diesel Retrofits...

Well, I'm not talking about the 4bt retrofits. Sorry if you thought I was digging your business. I was not, in fact I have (2) 4bt engines I'm going to be putting in vehicles myself. A Power Wagon, and a CJ jeep type vehicle. I've even toyed with the idea of putting a 6AT in a jeep, but I already have the 4bt. The thing about those early diesels, is that they are all mechanical, and easily repaired. The later electronically controlled ones seem to have the problems. The thing that really turns me on to the 4bT retrofit in the Power Wagon as a daily driver is the fuel economy and power over the original engine. But I have purchased the used takeout 4BT's years ago at a very reasonable price. Not close to what they are selling for now.

I do not buy the longevity issue over a gas motor either. my Father has a '94 with a 360/auto 4x4 and over 250K mi. Never had to repair anything on the power train, it even has the original exaust.

I have treated my '01 3500 well with regular service and Amzoil use. Fleetguard filters and whatnot, but at 100k mi, It has cost me quite a bit more per mile than a gas vehicle would. My 350 EFI truck towed the same loads I have behind the 3500 with no problems, and I usally stay in the slow lane anyway. If you are driving 70 MPH with a power wagon on the trailer, then you deserve whatever happens to you, I just hope nobody else is injured in the process.

I'm into my 3500 too much money to sell it, but if a late 80's w350 crewcab was available, I would be very tempted to put a Magnum 360 in it and use that as a daily driver/ tow vehicle.

[steved]

How much is the diesel option at the dealer these days, 5,000 dollars?

Actually, $5555. That's what my 2004.5 600CTD set me back...but at the same time, their resale values reflect the CTD by giving you more in return...

If you are worried about whether a diesel will pay for itself, then obviously you either don't have a need for or want one...or have never experienced one...

Most guys don't really need one, but...I will point this out...take a 3500 truck, tow heavy with it on a regular basis...which one do you think will last longer? Gasser or diesel?? Which one will get better mileage towing heavy?? And when even compared to a bigblock, which is going to tow easier??

Again, it is a personal choice whether you buy one...you money, your needs, your wants.

Some of us don't have the luxury of trading trucks all the time and expect the one we buy to actually hold up for the long haul...


steved

[MoparNorm]

Looks like I missed all the excitement today!
As for economic reasons, in one of my earlier posts here I did the math based upon diesel and gas at the same price, fuel was around $2.50 per gallon then, the break even point was at around 3 years, depending upon the mileage driven, approx. 25,000 per year. My 2002 is trouble free and driven daily.


This load in a gas 440 gave me approx. 7 mpg, in a ferd 7.3, 13.9 mpg, in the Dodge approx 16-19 depending upon the type of driving (there are a lot of hills here). For economic reasons, for longevity, for reliablility, I'll never own another gasoline motor, in ANY size vehicle.
As CG noted, you can run Bio, P100 veggie and a plethora of alternative cost fuels without harm, making the economy comparison not even close. With 20,000 lbs the Cummins thinks it's empty....
MN

[steved]

As CG noted, you can run Bio, P100 veggie and a plethora of alternative cost fuels without harm, making the economy comparison not even close.
MN

I will only state the while guys are running pure B100, the 3rd gen's CRD 5.9L are only recommended for use with 5% bio (B5) and the 6.7L is only recommended for use with 20% (B20)...

I'm not sure what the 1st/2nd gen CTD are ok to run, but I do know that guys report seal issues (swelling) with bio diesel.

But as noted, guys run B100 without reports of much issue.

steved