Why buy a Diesel?

[Jonas Smith]

I thought you would show up....

For economic reasons, for longevity, for reliablility, I'll never own another gasoline motor, in ANY size vehicle.
MN

I understand what your saying, but from my point of view, with my driving a expensive CTD that has needed repair, and my Father putting double the mileage on a 360 gasser (and he hauls a 4 place horse trailer up and down the east coast from Maine to FLA and points in between), I'm just saying the new diesel engines dont seem to be as reliable as the old gassers or 6BT cummins engines. My Carpool friend had to put a new engine in his '99 power stroke at 200k to the tune of $10K and the new engine is'nt running properly now either.
I just am not seeing the economy, longevity, or reliability that you are talking about that is'nt the same you would fing in a 360MAG

I own my 3500 free and clear. I love the truck and I love the towing capability it has, I'm just sick of paying out the nose to drive it.

[W_A_Watson_II]

I'm in the middle of deciding on either trading off the ferd V-10 and moving up to a real truck, a Dodge 5.9 Diesel.

My fern has a 120,000 mile life time average MPG of 13.25, and it gets 15-16 on highway non-towing as long as I keep it under 70 MPH (9-10 MPG Towing).

I hear that a Dodge 5.9 Diesel non-towing will get 19 MPG on the highway, or about 25% greater MPG.

I'm running a good 30K miles a year now, so I'd use about 375 fewer gallons of fuel. At $2.50 a gallon, that's only $937.50 savings, so even in three years I'd only save about $2,800 in fuel.

With the 5.9 Option being $4,888 Invoice, and hoping to be in that range, it would take over 5 years to break even and that's not including any fuel cost or maintance cost differences.

So buying for economics is not likely these days.

[Sickcall]

Steved, please go back and read my original post you will see that I do own a diesel, have owned 3, and have driven many more, and do not have a need for one as I do not tow/haul on a regular basis.

I understand the "pros" of owning a diesel, but again I will say that economics is not one of them. Charles has made the exception, a 4bt in a M-37.

I am a licensed diesel engineer and extensive operational/maintenance experience on many different engines in marine appplications. Those being anything from old Lake Union tug boat engines to the new large low speed MAN-BW main propulsion engines used shipboard today. Atlas, Enterprise, EMD, Nohab-Polar, Alco, Sultzer, MAN, BW, Cooper Vesmeer, Nordbreg, Fairbanks-Moorse, those are just the ones off the top of my head. For the last 30 years we have not even used diesel as the primary fuel, instead burning a less expensive residual fuel oil refered to as Bunker Fuel Oil.

How many head bolts do you think are on a cylinder cover that has a 90cm bore piston?

[steved]

Steved, please go back and read my original post you will see that I do own a diesel, have owned 3, and have driven many more, and do not have a need for one as I do not tow/haul on a regular basis.

I understand the "pros" of owning a diesel, but again I will say that economics is not one of them. Charles has made the exception, a 4bt in a M-37.

I am a licensed diesel engineer and extensive operational/maintenance experience on many different engines in marine appplications. Those being anything from old Lake Union tug boat engines to the new large low speed MAN-BW main propulsion engines used shipboard today. Atlas, Enterprise, EMD, Nohab-Polar, Alco, Sultzer, MAN, BW, Cooper Vesmeer, Nordbreg, Fairbanks-Moorse, those are just the ones off the top of my head. For the last 30 years we have not even used diesel as the primary fuel, instead burning a less expensive residual fuel oil refered to as Bunker Fuel Oil.

How many head bolts do you think are on a cylinder cover that has a 90cm bore piston?

#6 and #8 fuel oil? Yes, I know what bunker oil is...and there are specific reasons to use it in certain applications and NOT in others.

Large diesels are significantly different than those used our light trucks...and you really are comparing apples to oranges.

And I will restate...you either have a need/use for a diesel, want a diesel, or don't want a diesel. It is a personal choice and I would probably still own one even if diesels became more expensive to own...just because. And some of us don't need/use an economical reason to make our decision.

If you are looking for reason NOT to own one, then IMO, you probably don't really want to own one...


steved

[JimmieD]

Steved, please go back and read my original post you will see that I do own a diesel, have owned 3, and have driven many more, and do not have a need for one as I do not tow/haul on a regular basis.

I understand the "pros" of owning a diesel, but again I will say that economics is not one of them. Charles has made the exception, a 4bt in a M-37.

I am a licensed diesel engineer and extensive operational/maintenance experience on many different engines in marine appplications. Those being anything from old Lake Union tug boat engines to the new large low speed MAN-BW main propulsion engines used shipboard today. Atlas, Enterprise, EMD, Nohab-Polar, Alco, Sultzer, MAN, BW, Cooper Vesmeer, Nordbreg, Fairbanks-Moorse, those are just the ones off the top of my head. For the last 30 years we have not even used diesel as the primary fuel, instead burning a less expensive residual fuel oil refered to as Bunker Fuel Oil.

How many head bolts do you think are on a cylinder cover that has a 90cm bore piston?

Seems to me you're defeating your own argument! Of all of those engines listed in your post which ones could be ECONOMICALLY REPLACED with a gasser engine and still ECONOMICALLY do the job? None.

Another point: does one desire to rebuild on average every 175-200,000 miles, or would one prefer to go for 1,000,000-1,250,000 miles between rebuilds? That's a 5:1 rebuild ratio.

Lastly, if not for ECONOMICS and rock solid reliability then why does every single over the road trucking company and every single long and short distance railroad and the huge majority of commercial marine applications use diesel? Because they like the smell of fuel oil? Seen a Peterbilt, Mack or Freightliner gasser lately? I don't think so.....

[steved]

Seen a Peterbilt, Mack or Freightliner gasser lately? I don't think so.....

This made me laf, I was just looking at a old civilian 10 wheeled truck chassis (GMC??) with a gasser straight six!! I think it was either an old dump or old concrete truck...

steved

[JimmieD]

We should best look at the real complaints regarding the curent diesel rigs. All of these catastrophic expenses now connected to diesels are primarily caused by complex and expensive modifications to the basic design in the case of 1st Gen Cummins. The early engines were the stuff of legends and that's how Cummins made their place in the world of propulsion. What happened?

Greed. Folks decided they wanted MORE POWER and that has a price tag. Folks decided they wanted a whole truck full of sissy creature comforts, automatic this and automatic that so they don't have to actually think or do anything. Climate control A/C? Low fuel alert? Heated seats and heated mirrors? Lighted visor mirrors? A truck with every single function and control given over to operation by a complex computerized system with no user test or default over-ride mode and no hope of diagnosis of problems? YOU ASKED FOR IT!

The big 3 built their vehicles based on surveys and questionaires of what PEOPLE WANTED! The problem is that in general people are too lazy and ignorant and self-serving to ask for what the NEED, instead of every imaginable fluffy feel-good little item to add to the momentary experience that they WANT.

I go into a deli and order roast beef on french with extra Swiss and lots of mustard. "Did you want tomato?" No. "Did you want pickles?" No. "Did you want jalapeno peppers?" No. "Did you want lettuce?" No. "Did you want the Western Smoked Barbecue Teriyaki Ranch Sweet & Sour Secret Sauce?" Uh, no. "Onions?" No. I want a blasted sandwich because I'm hungry and I'll faint if you don't get on it soon. I eat and I'm satisfied and get back to more life.

Next person wants all of the fixings plus whatever is in the stainless steel tubs, trays, or refrigerator, plus potato/macaroni/spinach/veggie surprise salad and a soft drink with God knows what in its contents and a bag of Onion Ranch Barbeque Spicey Hot potato chips. One hour later they're bent over the rail wondering why they have to eat anti-acids and feel like they been punched in the gut by a Sumo wrestler.

The current situation with new diesel trucks is a result of a population that lacks reserve, common sense, personal initiative, modesty, simplicity, and self-enacted actions, preferring instead to let other people and things do the work for them. That's not free and it never has been......

[Charles Talbert]

This sums it up well Steve

Actually, $5555. That's what my 2004.5 600CTD set me back...but at the same time, their resale values reflect the CTD by giving you more in return...

If you are worried about whether a diesel will pay for itself, then obviously you either don't have a need for or want one...or have never experienced one...

Most guys don't really need one, but...I will point this out...take a 3500 truck, tow heavy with it on a regular basis...which one do you think will last longer? Gasser or diesel?? Which one will get better mileage towing heavy?? And when even compared to a bigblock, which is going to tow easier??

Again, it is a personal choice whether you buy one...you money, your needs, your wants.

Some of us don't have the luxury of trading trucks all the time and expect the one we buy to actually hold up for the long haul...


steved

This is good Steve, thanks for posting it, it's a good common sense point of view that can be easily applied to everyone's individual situation. We either need it & can put it to good use for our benefit & gain or we don't. No question "lemons" do show up on occasion in every breed. Sounds as if Jonas may have gotten one that is more trouble prone than the majority has been. This being an established fact in his mind, I can easily see why his opinion is what it is. When I make a purchase, it too is with the long haul in mind. In my mind the real savings come after the vehicle is free & clear & still provides years of good service at a minimal cost. I've found that to be true with diesels, especially Cummins. The majority of complaints I've heard from owners concerning the current production Dodge trucks with Cummins engines is this. "If only the rest of the truck was as good as the engine."

[Charles Talbert]

Amen Brother!!

We should best look at the real complaints regarding the curent diesel rigs. All of these catastrophic expenses now connected to diesels are primarily caused by complex and expensive modifications to the basic design in the case of 1st Gen Cummins. The early engines were the stuff of legends and that's how Cummins made their place in the world of propulsion. What happened?

Greed. Folks decided they wanted MORE POWER and that has a price tag. Folks decided they wanted a whole truck full of sissy creature comforts, automatic this and automatic that so they don't have to actually think or do anything. Climate control A/C? Low fuel alert? Heated seats and heated mirrors? Lighted visor mirrors? A truck with every single function and control given over to operation by a complex computerized system with no user test or default over-ride mode and no hope of diagnosis of problems? YOU ASKED FOR IT!

The big 3 built their vehicles based on surveys and questionaires of what PEOPLE WANTED! The problem is that in general people are too lazy and ignorant and self-serving to ask for what the NEED, instead of every imaginable fluffy feel-good little item to add to the momentary experience that they WANT.

I go into a deli and order roast beef on french with extra Swiss and lots of mustard. "Did you want tomato?" No. "Did you want pickles?" No. "Did you want jalapeno peppers?" No. "Did you want lettuce?" No. "Did you want the Western Smoked Barbecue Teriyaki Ranch Sweet & Sour Secret Sauce?" Uh, no. "Onions?" No. I want a blasted sandwich because I'm hungry and I'll faint if you don't get on it soon. I eat and I'm satisfied and get back to more life.

Next person wants all of the fixings plus whatever is in the stainless steel tubs, trays, or refrigerator, plus potato/macaroni/spinach/veggie surprise salad and a soft drink with God knows what in its contents and a bag of Onion Ranch Barbeque Spicey Hot potato chips. One hour later they're bent over the rail wondering why they have to eat anti-acids and feel like they been punched in the gut by a Sumo wrestler.

The current situation with new diesel trucks is a result of a population that lacks reserve, common sense, personal initiative, modesty, simplicity, and self-enacted actions, preferring instead to let other people and things do the work for them. That's not free and it never has been......

Great post Jim. I'm even hearing from my Cummins Rep that calls on me here at the shop weekly that folks are complaining that the latest generation of Cummins engines no longer "sound like diesels." Are folks hard to please or what?

[steved]

I have noticed a trend in the CTDs...

The 1st gens:

These are the mechanical 12 valve engines
Average mid 20s mpg, pretty much consistant across the board.
Almost completely mechanically controlled
Lowest HO/TQ rating (160 and 180HPs)
Most reliable of the CTDs
Very few issues (usually the body fell apart around the drivetrain)

The 2nd gens:

These are the 24 valve engines brought out in 1998.5.
Average around 20mpg (but they vary from the mid teens to the mid 20s)
Electronic controlled injection pump, electric LP, some sensors.
Mid HP ratings (215/235/250HP)
Pretty reliable.
However a failed LP will eventually kill the IP at a cost of $2k. Some sensors will cause you to sit also. Cracked exhaust manifolds are common.


The 3rd gens:

These are the new CRDs (2003+)
Average around 15mpg (but vary from single digits to 20+mpg)
Electronic everything...(the IP is a better design though, but the LP is still questionable)
Highest HP of the CTDs to date (305/325HP)
Questionable reliability
More issues (dropped valve guides, burnt pistons, dead LPs, dead CP3s, sensor nightmares, wiring issues, vibration issues, etc)


1st gen 6.7L CTD

2007+ CRDs...I won't even touch these because there isn't any significant info on them yet...



This is the trend I have seen. If I had not been pushed to buy a truck in the rush I did, I would have hunted up a 1st gen CTD (or kept my 2nd gen)...typically, as we "improve" on the old design, the less reliability we have...

steved

[JimmieD]

One last and most relevant item for discussion: The environmental lobby and Save the Planet crowd. Maybe you're one of them [generic address not pointed at anyone here!!] and feel that we must do EVERYTHING we can to clean up the environment and give Mother Nature an extended health spa treatment. While we're at it we'll cordon off any piece of public real estate that is scenic or otherwise and turn it over to socialist groups which will exclude the rightful property owners [us, as in U.S.A citizens] and everyone but themselves from use of it.

The cause of pollution is not global warming or inefficient engines. It starts with industrial pollution, railroad/truck engines and stone age surface transportation systems. A vehicle releases something like 85%-95% more pollutants at idle or crawl speed than it does at cruising speed.

Intersections are placed in roadways to allow a change of direction and stoplights are there to prevent collisions by ignorant lamebrains who can't slow down or stop, without help, to see if anybody is coming before they pull out or change direction. Most cities use stoplights to SLOW TRAFFIC to increase local business revenues, because local business revenues pay a lot of bills. What happens when you take the 'Business Highway' turnoffs? S-l-o-w d-o-w-n-n-n-n.

In addition the Environmental lobbies have been ALLOWED to take control of our politics, governance, businesses, transportation, manufacturing, recreation, lifestyle/living, taxes, fees, and vehicles for their own self-serving desires! "STOP THE POLLUTION AT ANY COST!!" is their slogan.

Simply addressing the issues of transportation of a mass populace in a realistic way would improve the situation immeasurably but you'll never see it in your lifetime. If they want to mandate something how about this: A quota system of business hours so that a % open at 6 am, 7 am, 8 am, 9 am, 10 am, 11 am and 12 am? Manufacturing can be performed at any hour of the day or night, rather than 6-2 or 7-3 or 8-4 or 9-5. Only businesses that have active customer interactions during daylight hours NEED to keep the shopkeeper hours. Instead the whole nation targets 9-5 as the business day. What's that do to transportation of a population? Gridlock. Gridlock POLLUTION. Keep the traffic moving and the problem is 85%-95% solved.

Instead of truthfully and intelligently addressing the many real problems that exist in America and the world which actually cause the planetary pollution a few 'target' scapegoats have been selected, because it plays best to bleeding hearts who don't mind being trampeled and who believe whatever they're told by groups that wave the environmental flag and colors. Vehicles are an easy target because the need to meet increased levels of 'pollution control' justifies insane price tags at the window sticker and the gas/diesel pump so that mfgrs. willingly co-operate. Insurance companies like it as a bigger ticket on policies, governments like it as higher car fee revenues, and various fat cats love the ka-ching on a daily basis. You pay for it.

The eventual cost of that is fantastically complicated vehicles that can only maintain their ability to do the job of transportation of people and goods for about 2-3 years at best, sometimes MUCH LESS. No hope of ever regaining control either, because the mass population is self-serving, apathetic, generally mindless and fully programmed to swallow it all from kindergarten on up. They also want fully automatic machines that do everything for them instead of doing it for themselves. Matter of fact, give them a computer control that automatically does the automatic so they don't even have to push a button. The Servo Society.

[steved]

One last and most relevant item for discussion: The environmental lobby and Save the Planet crowd.

I will only add that the diesel is used widely in Europe because they are more efficient than gassers. The auto makers of THIS COUNTRY are selling the SAME MODELS over seas with diesel power plants...I feel cheated.

We ought to be proud of our EPA (even though it costs us at every step), we do have one of the cleanest places to live in the world. Take a look at China, they have polluted some of their rivers so badly with industrial wastes that the water cannot be used for drinking water...

I also agree with the gridlock theory. I actually work for a company with "flex hours"...I leave before rush hour going to and returning from work (saves me upwards of an hour per day in travel time). I also work from home one day a week. By avoiding rush hour, I save about $15/week on fuel...not driving a single day saves me an additional $15. I feel, as you do, that if traffic jams were eliminated at KNOWN problem places, we would save a lot in fuel...I also feel that if every station was retrofitted with vapor recovery equipment, that would significantly help...

But one underlying fact regarding fuel usage is operator error...we have become so specialized that a lot of us don't know how to check the pressure in our tires. General preventative maintenance, making sure the car is operating properly, properly inflated tires, and most of all, driver habits play a big role in fuel mileage which is a direct relation to the amount of emissions generated...

steved

[JimmieD]

Yes, and yes indeed, Operator Error is the foundation of American vehicle design principles as well as the crux of the problem in many cases!

i was surprised to see that in European cities it is mandated that vehicles SHUT OFF THEIR ENGINES while waiting at a railroad crossing. MANY rail crossings there with frequent trains, so that's a significant donation to lower pollution! What if that could be implemented in American cities? How about if folks on the freeways crawling at 1-3 mph in rush hour traffic were required by law, and stop lights, to stop and shut off the engine until traffic flow ahead resumes!!? Stalled vehicles pay huge fines for blocking traffic? Is that too complicated? Simple, and up to an 85% decrease in pollution.

The EPA concept is good to me, the implementation and manipulation and backdoor agendas are totally disgusting to me. I am a conservationist and ecologist and have been my entire life. Unfortunately it is now taken to the same limits as America's eating habits. Have you seen the waistlines lately? Morbid obesity is near the #1 health problem in America today! 300 to 400 lbs people are the common sight. EPA is suffering from obesity from stuffing itself on power and control and money, money, money but mindless or in total disregard of the real needs in the nation in my opinion.

[steved]

i was surprised to see that in European cities it is mandated that vehicles SHUT OFF THEIR ENGINES while waiting at a railroad crossing. MANY rail crossings there with frequent trains, so that's a significant donation to lower pollution! What if that could be implemented in American cities? How about if folks on the freeways crawling at 1-3 mph in rush hour traffic were required by law, and stop lights, to stop and shut off the engine until traffic flow ahead resumes!!? Stalled vehicles pay huge fines for blocking traffic? Is that too complicated? Simple, and up to an 85% decrease in pollution.

They have started to implement a "no idle" law in NJ and NY for trucks. They cannot idle for more than 5 minutes at a truck stop before they are required (by law) to shut them off or they risk getting a $200 fine. I believe I have also heard something about a similar deal in rest areas in VA?? I think this is going to be a new "wave" of nationwide laws soon...

Some of the trucks are also programmed to run a certain way based on mileage...if the truck doesn't average a certain mileage, it will not allow the driver to run the truck hard enough to drop it further...sucks in a way, but at least you are assured a certain MPG is maintained...better MPG equals less emissions.

If you notice, a lot of the OTR trucks now have a little diesel powered generator/environmental control on the passenger side, in front of the rear wheels...these are being used by companies to (GASP!) save money on fuel, with an added benefit of reduced emissions for us (they don't see that though!!)

Being I work on projects that involve EPA, I guess I don't see them as that bad...I see a lot more $$ wasted in other branches of Gov.

steved

[JimmieD]

They have started to implement a "no idle" law in NJ and NY for trucks. They cannot idle for more than 5 minutes at a truck stop before they are required (by law) to shut them off or they risk getting a $200 fine. I believe I have also heard something about a similar deal in rest areas in VA?? I think this is going to be a new "wave" of nationwide laws soon...

Some of the trucks are also programmed to run a certain way based on mileage...if the truck doesn't average a certain mileage, it will not allow the driver to run the truck hard enough to drop it further...sucks in a way, but at least you are assured a certain MPG is maintained...better MPG equals less emissions.

If you notice, a lot of the OTR trucks now have a little diesel powered generator/environmental control on the passenger side, in front of the rear wheels...these are being used by companies to (GASP!) save money on fuel, with an added benefit of reduced emissions for us (they don't see that though!!)

Being I work on projects that involve EPA, I guess I don't see them as that bad...I see a lot more $$ wasted in other branches of Gov.

steved

I apologize if it seems I pirated your thread as a platform to push my own opinions on the forums, Jonas. To me the big picture is the problem and not the current market segment results. Therefore the rants about seemingly 'other problems' are actually point blank hits on the real problem you mentioned.

Yes, Steve, don't get me started on "...other branches of Gov.', ha hahaha!! EPA is needed and has done some great things, but unfortunately most of the mandates arising from there over the past 20 years have seriously stifled America in more ways than I can describe here! Just seems to me the benefits can't outweigh the expense when things get carried so far away. To me the bottom line is: has it worked and achieved the objective? Overall, no. Why? Because it addresses many problems while refusing to target many of the real causes of planetary pollutions.