A sad commentary

[Ron in Indiana]

I went to an auction today. It was no ordinary auction to some who attended, myself being one of them. This was a liquidation of industrial arts equipment from 6 nearby schools due the cancellation of these programs. There were all sorts of wood and metal working tools, all of which were American made. It made me rather unhappy as I thought that wood shop would no longer be offered to young students. I don't know if there was not enough interest in industrial arts or if this was a cost cutting decision. Either way I wondered how can this be? There must some out there who want to learn how to build something with their own hands. When I was in school I was an industrial arts major. Today I would be a dinosaur I suppose. There is a vocational school in the system but only two or three Kids from each school are selected. What about the others who may not want to go into a trade but could at least have a working knowledge of tools and plans? I don't know how many others felt as I did while carting off the spoils of the auction but I did find a few who felt the same. Yes I bought a few things but as I use them I'll think about those who won't get a chance to use these tools. A sad day when you think about it.

[Chewie]

I think it's called nepotism, Ron. College grads hire college grads, simply because they are college grads. And four year diplomas look better than two year tech degrees, and on it goes.
Someone decided that their school system really didn't need programs like that, and made the proposal to have them cut. They're not necessary for today's academic climate. What good does shop do for our society? We need more academic focused programs; more of a global focus for our students. The future is in logistics and economics! The rest of them- non tech grads themselves- agreed.
And hence the auction.
The school system where we live actually has a farm (along with the usual tech programs) where students plant, cultivate and harvest different crops. Mostly corn -it is Iowa- but I've seen other stuff grown.
I think we are in the minority, now.

Unfortunately, I get to work with said grads on a daily basis. I believe most of them could plan their way out of a paper sack, some could plot their way out, but none of them could find their way out. Makes my job terribly frustrating...

[Charles Talbert]

Sad day indeed

The public schools in my district in NC did away with tech stuff years ago for the most part. Local high school has an electronics and construction class. But let me explain; my son graduated in '05; 1 year in electronics, he decided that was a total joke early in the year. I think he may have learned to hook up a flash light bulb to a D cell battery, basic soldering. He went for the construction class the next round with the promise made of being able to work with some seasoned contractors, (home builders) on some actual jobs. That fell through quickly as contractors who opted in found out in the first couple of days that the class consisted of mostly screw ups that had no ambition or other elective options. The highlight projects of the year, bird houses and picnic tables. By the way, my son had no idea of how to read a tape measure if the increment he needed was less than 1". Why didn't he fail the class? How does one do carpenter work if they can't read a tape measure? I'm still trying to figure that one out. He is now 1 of our best employees at M Series rebuild, does mostly body work, welding, and painting, needless to say, he got all his education here.

Never ceases to amaze me, this world we live in. One student after being tested showed he had the mentality of a 6th grader, yet he was right in with the graduating class of '05. Next thing I heard, he's been accepted into college; guess what his major is, going to be a lawyer!! Yep, his parents are well off with $$$ being no object. I wonder how far he will go in life before their $$ can't buy his way. This is interesting to watch.

Tie all this together with where this country appears to be headed. Isn't too hard to know why we have a current president that acts like he's from another planet I guess.

[Bob2]

Vocational Education

There are a few of who for some reason or another did not go to college, I for one did not have the where with all to go, I opted to go into vocational education starting in the 7th 8th and 9th grade 1-hour a day in wood working sponsored by Rybovitch Boat Works in West Palm Beach, FL.

In the summertime I worked at the boat yard as an all around gopher getting this and that for the craftsman and learning the trade. During summer after 8th grade I fell in love with welding, it was what I wanted to do the rest of my life. Well, being indoctrinated with a case of flashed eyes I was hooked.

High School years I took welding for 3-hours a day for 3-years 10th, 11th & 12th grades, for a total of 1497 hours out of a possiable 1500 hours, missed 1-day in 3-years.

Was a welder in the Navy. Have worked in the industry in one capacity or another for 44-years. Am now Project inspector for KBR / Chevron Big Foot deep water drilling / production platform, in charge of all farication/welding desciples for this 3.4 billion dollar platform which will go into production Summer 2013 off the LA coast.

I have so many young people ask me where I got my start and tell them that story.

I am past chairman of the American Welding Society Houston Section and have been active in AWS for 35-years

Here in Texas there is Vocational Education only FFA.

When will the apprentiship programs come back? when we are a second world country?

[Jeff in N.Tx.]

It is sad to see this happen so often. We are very lucky. Our local school district finally saw the light and reinstated a bunch of vo/tech programs. In fact, 6 years ago, they built a brand new technology center that draws students from all three of our high schools. They offer career training in automotive technology, (auto repair), welding, metal fabrication, CNC machine shop training, electronics, building construction, and, have programs for nursing, pharmacy technology, beauty school, and a program for chefs/hospitility careers.
The facilities are outstanding. The auto shop has every high tech computerized diognosis machine you could ask for.
We are very lucky to have such a facility. Our son went through the automotive program, then on to a 2 year community college for a degree in automotive technology. The day he graduated, he had a full time job as an ASE certified line mechanic at one of the big local Ford dealers.
We need more schools to think along these lines.
Jeff

[Steve G]

The local school district for my area is the same one I attended. My dad did not want me to take a bunch of shop classes because the writing was on the wall about manufacturing jobs. This was in the mid 80's and he was employed at John Deere, retiring after 40 years. Now the replacements at Deere make about half the hourly wage and a fraction of the benefits. Anyway I took no high school shop classes and learned everything I know about cars, building, plumbing, and welding because I wanted to know about it, and most of the knowledge was from older guys that worked in each field (That includes all the guys here on the forum). I became an electrician after a 5 year apprenticeship program- more "shop" related work, which is good because I would go nuts in an office all day. Back to the topic, I think that even if some of the students do not get any "shop" training they could still be in some type of vocational field. I do know that the local school does not put any emphasis on shop classes and pushes for computer related jobs. They took out junior high (7&8 grade) wood shop about 8 years and what was the result? A high demand for 9th grade wood shop where every period is full and kids waiting to get in. Why? Because the kids wanted to experience wood shop to see if they liked it. Years ago everyone was required to take 9 weeks of shop for 7th and 8th grades and that pretty much told you whether or not it was for you. The high school principal could not believe the interest in 9th shop. He said they figured since it was no longer offered in junior high that there would be less interest in taking high school shop classes. They do still have welding, auto, metals, electricity, woods, and construction. Funny thing is they built a brand new high school here about 3 years ago, spent $60 million on it, and the shop teachers have less room than they did in the old high school.

[Chewie]

This was in the mid 80's and he was employed at John Deere, retiring after 40 years. Now the replacements at Deere make about half the hourly wage and a fraction of the benefits.

Deeres? I work there now. What did they do to the new hires? They got rid of the incentive plan, lowered the base rate 20%, narrowed the pool of doctors they'd pay for, took some vacation time away, and took away the pension.
They also gave them full COLA -instead of the diversion your dad got- and a matched 401K.
And that was 12 years ago.
Since then, the difference is less than 20%, more doctors to choose from, and a few more vacation hours. There is a gap between new hires and old timers, but it's shrinking.
It's a good place to work.
As long as you can get past the college grads struggling with paper sacks...

[Bob Thompson]

For many years I contributed to a local High school. I would buy a lot of equipment at an auction. I picked out the machinery I wanted and donated the rest to the High school. Lathes, grinders, band saws even a milling machine. What the shop teacher didn't need was traded for some they could use. Likewise I donated things to the auto shop. One year I called the shop teacher to arrange delivery of some equipment . He told me the district had closed down all shop and manual arts programs. The shop teacher told me that the schools want to focus on getting all their students into college.
In England the schools vet the herd so to speak . Those who show an aptitude for higher learning are groomed for it . Those who show an ability to make or build things get groomed for vocational school.
Not everyone is suited for college , Our school system has lost sight of that fact. With the result that nobody learns anything. I'm not implying that anyone's child is dumb, I simply mean to convey that some are better suited to learn welding than trigonometry.

[Hobcobble]

In middle & high school, I geared up for either
scenario [trade school vs college] by taking
industrial arts classes [metal shop, wood shop
and mechanical drawing] along with the NY
State Regents classes which prepped those
interested for continuing onto college. I also
gained valuable experience working on the
family farm during Summers. As young and
goofed up as I was, my folks & I both figured
it was the best way to keep all options open.

Its sad to read Ron's post. What the heck are
school systems thinking??....
John

[Clint Dixon]

...."Its sad to read Ron's post. What the heck are
school systems thinking??...."
John

It is hard to say what they are thinking and I hope I never reach the level to get in their heads and find out. It appears there are a lot of the wrong people on school boards.

[Chris Olson]

I guess you could say I was one of those kids who was more 'vocational' than academic.. I will say that I learned more physics from my shop teachers than the actual science teachers. God bless you Mr. Phillips.
It's a travesty that there will be no auto shop for future generations..

[Bruce in BC]

Administration is part of the problem

Most administration is made up of academics . They are not necessarily the cream of the crop . They have little worldly experience and view the roll of being an admin as being a crowning achievement . The reality is they are little more than the hall monitor from heck . The back ground of admin seems to be made up of former math teachers , followed by science and english and of course PE teachers . Their second major would be admin or curriculum design .
As a group a majority of admin went from high school , to university and then hit the school system . Once there ,a lot of them leave in the first 3 years . Many because the system is not full filling and others because the reality is they can make a much better wage elsewhere .
A few of those who want to get out but lack marketable skills move up the ladder and become admin . Others move up because they want to make changes . So you end up with about 50% of admin who should not be there .
These guys could never operate a business because they lack the experience and skills to do so . Inept is a perfect description .
This pool of inept admin spends a great amount of time trying to look busy . They go to the meetings and listen to other inept admin telling them what is wrong with education and how to fix it .
The fix generally involves creating a new course . say " consumer ed " or "audio , visual appreciation " . What gets dumped will be a course of little perceived value Auto , metal , drafting , woodwork fits that bill quite well .
Adding extra hours of english , math , or sciences in an effort to boost students test scores means less hours for something else . The shop area fits that bill too .
Admin levels have grown over the last decade while the number of students and teachers has dropped . Think about that one .
Kind of like the Army - there are more office workers and paper shufflers than soldiers . The paper shufflers get paid more too .

[Charles Talbert]

You've hit the nail on the head, and drove it HOME

Most administration is made up of academics . They are not necessarily the cream of the crop . They have little worldly experience and view the roll of being an admin as being a crowning achievement . The reality is they are little more than the hall monitor from heck . The back ground of admin seems to be made up of former math teachers , followed by science and english and of course PE teachers . Their second major would be admin or curriculum design .
As a group a majority of admin went from high school , to university and then hit the school system . Once there ,a lot of them leave in the first 3 years . Many because the system is not full filling and others because the reality is they can make a much better wage elsewhere .
A few of those who want to get out but lack marketable skills move up the ladder and become admin . Others move up because they want to make changes . So you end up with about 50% of admin who should not be there .
These guys could never operate a business because they lack the experience and skills to do so . Inept is a perfect description .
This pool of inept admin spends a great amount of time trying to look busy . They go to the meetings and listen to other inept admin telling them what is wrong with education and how to fix it .
The fix generally involves creating a new course . say " consumer ed " or "audio , visual appreciation " . What gets dumped will be a course of little perceived value Auto , metal , drafting , woodwork fits that bill quite well .
Adding extra hours of english , math , or sciences in an effort to boost students test scores means less hours for something else . The shop area fits that bill too .
Admin levels have grown over the last decade while the number of students and teachers has dropped . Think about that one .
Kind of like the Army - there are more office workers and paper shufflers than soldiers . The paper shufflers get paid more too .

This is exactly what I see happening in the local school system in my back door.

As for the athletic dept; the ones who take part are set up high on a pedistal, both coaches and student participants. This creates problems between 2 groups of students; the athletes and the non-athletic. The non group is looked down upon by student athletes and coaches, who are often teachers also. The teacher/coaches will do anything to make the student athletes appear a notch above the others, (do we have a double standard or what). You can imagine all the problems that program leads too. Have an issue with an athlete and take it to the officials, yeh right.

The real question I have is this; has all the common sense left forever, or will some live to see it actually come back into the public education system? I wonder. Discussion anyone?

[Clint Dixon]

This is exactly what I see happening in the local school system in my back door.

As for the athletic dept; the ones who take part are set up high on a pedistal, both coaches and student participants. This creates problems between 2 groups of students; the athletes and the non-athletic. The non group is looked down upon by student athletes and coaches, who are often teachers also. The teacher/coaches will do anything to make the student athletes appear a notch above the others, (do we have a double standard or what). You can imagine all the problems that program leads too. Have an issue with an athlete and take it to the officials, yeh right.

The real question I have is this; has all the common sense left forever, or will some live to see it actually come back into the public education system? I wonder. Discussion anyone?

This is not a new problem. It existed in the late 70's when I was in high school, though probably not a bad as today.

I was never in any school team sports. Because of that, I know exactly how group #2, the non-athletic, are treated. No matter how hard I tried, I could get no better than a "C" for a grade in P.E. or any of the subjects the coaches/teachers taught. In fact, this turned me off even more to team sports so that I have never paid any attention to baseball, football, etc.

I did however devote all of my time outside of school, and later outside of work, to a non-team non-school sport - Motocross. I always wore my racing jerseys to school on Fridays. That did not always go over so well with the "real athletes". If is funny how none of them ever took me up on my challenge to get on a dirt bike and race one-on-one against me.

[Charles Talbert]

You are correct, it is not a new issue. It also went on back in the 60's when I was a high school student, but not nearly as bad as it is today. I have a daughter that is a senior this year; I've never seen the likes of how it is today. I will be thrilled when she is done with it.

Something else I've never seen the likes of before is the number of students graduating that are almost in the ranks of the illiterate. I went for years not really paying attention to this, but having a student in high school has brought a lot of things to the light recently that I had previously overlooked because of being out of the loop. It is in epidemic proportions around our area.