Knots

[Gordon Maney]

My old friend Ken Marsh knew all kinds of knots, and he did all that with such ease. I wish I knew what he did.

I am great with chains and slings, but not so much with rope. What sort of knot do you use to tie a rope to a tree to put some tension on it for felling? What knot do you use when tying rope to tie-downs in the back of a truck for holding cargo in place? What to do with that pesky tail?

I am going to buy a long piece of 5/8 rope to use in pulling on some trees prior to felling. I feel disadvantaged in approaching the task, thinking it would be great if there were some fittings I could buy, but there aren't any that I can see.

Any knot tying enthusiasts here? Discuss.

[mdvberg]

I've been a rock climber for over 30 years, so my climbing knots are pretty good. Generally, we want a knot that is:

1) Easy to tie
2) Absolutely will not untie by itself
3) Does not cause the rope to lose strength when under tension (some knots can result in 50% loss!)
4) Is easy to untie after it has been tensioned

Here are my favorites:

1) Bowline with a Yosemite finish. Slightly different finish than a regular bowline. Easier to untie, and stronger than a regular bowline. Great for tying around something (like a tree). This is a better knot than the more common double figure eight that most climbers use.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yosemite_bowline

2) Alpine Butterfly. A little harder to tie than a bowline, but very strong, and very easy to untie after being tensioned. Also nice because it can be tied in the middle of a rope. A slight variation can be use to join two ropes together.

http://www.animatedknots.com/alpinebutterfly/

3) Double (or Triple) Fisherman's. Used to tie two ropes together, or to form a loop. Extremely strong, and good for slippery synthetic ropes. For some synthetics, like Spectra Cord, the triple fisherman's is the only knot that is proven to hold securely. Only drawback is that it is very hard to untie after being tensioned.

http://www.animatedknots.com/doublef...matedknots.com

4) Mule knot (often used as a Munter Mule in climbing) Used to tie off a tensioned load in a way that is easy to release the tension later. Takes some practice to learn it.

http://www.animatedknots.com/muntermule/index.php

5) Truckers Hitch. This one isn't a climbing knot, but is very useful for tensioning the rope, since you get a mechanical advantage (like with a pulley) Good for tying down loads.

http://www.animatedknots.com/trucker...matedknots.com

[Gordon Maney]

Thank you! Wonderful stuff.

[Bob Thompson]

Very cool info Mike, The truckers knot is ideal for holding down cargo.


Gordon, for round items like a tree trunk I'm partial to a clove hitch . Simple knot but very useful.

[Hobcobble]

This is one instance where it is better to
be one of the "have knots".......
John

[QuantumJo]

The King of Knots

Bowline is one of my favorite knots. I use it all the time. Never slips and is very easy to loosen when you want to remove the knot.

[DavidGB]

Knots

All excellent knots and as someone who has spent many years at sea on boats, particularly sail boats, I agree strongly with the criteria of being easy to undo. I like the bowline for this application. When securing to the tree, I suggest passing the line around the tree at least twice before knotting it. This will help prevent the line from traveling along the trunk. Also, the type of tie down strap with rings at each end often used in securing a vehicle on a car trailer could be used to wrap around the tree and then have the line fasten to it. I am sure you have seen the occasional video of some unfortunate "woodsman" managing to have the tree come down on his truck or house. How you make your cut is very important. I would suggest a very long line and remember that nylon line (as an example) can stretch something like 30%. Unless you route the line through a block that changes the angle between the tree and the block and the block and your truck, you are attempting to pull the tree towards your truck.
DavidGB

[Gordon Maney]

Let's say I have a 150' piece of rope and tie it between a tree and a tractor 80' apart. What is the smart way to tie that? Can you double the one end and tie that, eliminating the slack that way?

[Bruce]

Knots

The Bowline is one of my favorites, and that pesky tail, maybe a clove hitch.
I was thinking a sheet-bend, but that needs tension, this would help tying a load down or shortening your line.
I learned most, if knot all of them from my father a lifetime Boy Scout & Eagle Scout too. I was involved with Scouting in one way or another for more than forty years.

[DavidGB]

Knots

If I understand correctly, the scenario outlined was created with the following constraints: The tractor for whatever reason is available as an anchor only (can't be moved to prestress line.) The line is just short of being able to go from the tractor to the tree and back to the tractor. I will also assume that there are no pulleys available.
Therefore the line must have one end first attached to the tree. (I agree that a bowline would be a good choice for that.) I would then create a loop in the line about 20' short of the tractor by tying a figure eight knot with a bend in the line (the first part of the "truckers hitch" mentioned in an earlier post.) After passing the bitter end around a suitable turning point on the tractor I would then bring it back to the loop and pull it through that. You now have a 2 to 1 advantage. You can gain more purchase by repeating legs of this cycle but with out pulleys friction becomes an increasing issue. This is like a large scale "truckers hitch" and I would finish it with a "slip" hitch knot.
I think this discussion is interesting in light of its' taking place in a Forum dedicated to trucks known for often having powerful PTO driven winches.
DavidGB

[Gordon Maney]

If I understand correctly, the scenario outlined was created with the following constraints: The tractor for whatever reason is available as an anchor only (can't be moved to prestress line.) The line is just short of being able to go from the tractor to the tree and back to the tractor. I will also assume that there are no pulleys available.
Therefore the line must have one end first attached to the tree. (I agree that a bowline would be a good choice for that.) I would then create a loop in the line about 20' short of the tractor by tying a figure eight knot with a bend in the line (the first part of the "truckers hitch" mentioned in an earlier post.) After passing the bitter end around a suitable turning point on the tractor I would then bring it back to the loop and pull it through that. You now have a 2 to 1 advantage. You can gain more purchase by repeating legs of this cycle but with out pulleys friction becomes an increasing issue. This is like a large scale "truckers hitch" and I would finish it with a "slip" hitch knot.
I think this discussion is interesting in light of its' taking place in a Forum dedicated to trucks known for often having powerful PTO driven winches.
DavidGB

No, the tractor can be moved to tension the line. The 150' rope is longer than the space between tree and anchor.

I don't have a running truck with a winch, or I would use that!

[DavidGB]

Knots

In that case, unless you're stronger than your tractor, I would fasten one end to the tree with a bowline and tie it off to the tractor with another bowline and then put tension on it by driving the tractor (being careful to not approach the breaking strength of the line.)
DavidGB

[DavidGB]

Safe Load

Various sources will have various numbers, but for 5/8" nylon line the min. breaking strength is plus or minus 8900 lbft and the [B]safe load[B] is plus or minus 740 lbft.
DavidGB

[DavidGB]

knots

By rementioning that the line is 150' long and the distance from the tree to the tractor is 80' it now occurs to me that you may be concerned with the fact that you have more line than you need. I don't see that as a problem. When securing to the tractor, instead of using the bitter end, just grab a "bight" (doubled over line) and make the bowline using that. Then coil up the tail and hang it on the tractor. When fastening to the tree and the tractor the more turns of line around the tree and the securing point on the tractor the less force is transmitted to tightening the knot.
DavidGB

[Gordon Maney]

By rementioning that the line is 150' long and the distance from the tree to the tractor is 80' it now occurs to me that you may be concerned with the fact that you have more line than you need. I don't see that as a problem. When securing to the tractor, instead of using the bitter end, just grab a "bight" (doubled over line) and make the bowline using that. Then coil up the tail and hang it on the tractor. When fastening to the tree and the tractor the more turns of line around the tree and the securing point on the tractor the less force is transmitted to tightening the knot.
DavidGB

Thank you for that part. That was my big question at that point.