Me, kids and higher education

[BobbyMike]

I just finished Firefighter 1 with a class of about 20 students, one being my 19 year old son, Samuel. This is the second time through for me as I had to drop out of the first class due to medical reasons (Rocky Mountain Spotted fever - don't recommend it) early last year.
Half of the class were highschoolers/college age kids (nice to see in in an area that has no paid firefighters). While they were all excited about being in the course (as most of us were) I noticed an interesting thing about the difference between the hands on knowledge and the book knowledge. For the mid term and final tests students had to get at least a 70. I was excited to see my son beat me by one point on his midterm (93 - yep. I'm bragging on him), but was appalled by how many of the students failed the test, or barely squeaked by with a 71 or 72. This was a multiple choice/true false test. A little over 1/4 of the class had to re-take the tests.
The problem with the ones that failed? They all refused to read the required chapters from the book before class. In each case they said if they couldn't learn what they needed in class they didn't think they should have to do homework. Two of the kids were were sons of department chiefs.
I'd blame it on age/experience, but several of the people who had trouble were close to my age. One of the firefighters had been serving as an interior firefighter in a company that had allowed him never to have to complete the training (mandatory in New York). He whined for the first half of the class "because I already know all of this sh*t". He kept it up until he almost failed the mid-term. His chief was one of the instructors. After that he shut up, dug in and did fine.
As I near fifty I see this less as an age related problem and a general problem in our culture. It's not new by any means, it just seems to be more prevalent today.

[Clint Dixon]

It seems to me a lot have been coddled to the point of ruin. Mom said I'm perfect and can do no wrong and if I fail it's not my fault.

I'll bet a lot of these same kids played in some "sport" where everyone got a trophy whether they won or not - because "losing" can scar them for life you know.

I run into the same thing in the engineering company where I work. There is a constant flow of young engineering graduates through the doors. Those that "make it" are still making the same mistakes a year later as I check their work. I have only an Associates Degree from a technical school in Computer Aided Drafting, yet, I am teaching these new Bachelor of Engineering degree holding graduates how to do their job. More often than not, it is the basics that they struggle with. This includes showing up for work on time. Because they have a higher degree than I do, they get paid more than I do. They also get promoted higher up the ladder. There is only one person in the office higher than me that was not taught by me in how to do their job.

As far as political correctness goes, here is an old thread:

http://www.powerwagonadvertiser.com/...light=stopcrap

[Kevin in Ohio]

I'll bet a lot of these same kids played in some "sport" where everyone got a trophy whether they won or not - because "losing" can scar them for life you know.

Trust me, I know how you feel. I understand the need for education but having a piece of paper should not be the total qualifier of judging/giving someone a position.

I started working full time before I was out of high school. If you had enough credits and your grades were okay they would let you have early dismissal. Man did I jump on that! I never took any college courses even though I could go tuition free as the university my Mom worked at allowed it. Just not my thing.

I started at my current job 10 years after high school as the farm operation I worked at was not paying real well. Loved the work and people, just wasn't something to have a nest egg/retirement from. Had never run tooling machinery before but always wanted to. Drone work at first but moved up as I could, not caring about shift.

I put in to be a toolmaker at our shop. Took all the tests and they were selecting the people for it. I new there were classes that had to be taken at the local college but then I started to pencil it out. Till you were done it was basically a class load for a 4 year degree. Work loads of overtime allready and basically would have NO free time for 4 years.

I went to the plant manager and told him to pull my application. When he asked why I said it wasn't worth it. He looked at me and said it's the classes isn't it? Shook my head yes and told him that is why WE ALL came here, Because we didn't want to go to college.

It's ironic now, A lot of the people who are running the machines AND training the ones that have gone through the courses wouldn't be "allowed" to have the jobs that they currently have. They tried to force some of the older ones who train to get the schooling. They said no and the company threatened to remove them. They asked management who was going to do all of the training when they got kicked out? Management quickly backed down.

I've had 4 good trainees in the past 10 years and all of them were off the street without any prior experience. It's funny as you can tell within minutes of starting who will make it.

It blows me away to look back as I was topped out waged wise in 6 months and I have people who have been in "training" for a 1 1/2 years who say there is too much to learn. I ask them to write things down but it's like pulling teeth to get them to do it. When some do, they can't even figure out their OWN directions. I consider myself average but have a high desire to do well and be self efficient at my job. They seem to want to have a job setter with no accountability. Self sufficient IS a part of the job, most don't get that.

How bad is it now? My sister who is a school teacher near Ron in Indiana was informed by her school district that teachers should no longer grade papers with a red markers. Reason is it's too threatening to children and they should use "softer" colors. Lord help us all.

[Ron in Indiana]

This is what I'm talking about, use softer colors??? Give me a break this country is way to touchy feely and soft. When we were growing up if you got a bad grade you got the consequences. You got chewed on and better do better the next time. As far as sports go I never played. We were in 4-H and Boy Scouts where we learned life skills. Sure in sports you learn to be a team player but back then somebody won, somebody lost. Nothing like today where everyone is a winner and gets a trophy. Where's the incentive to do your best? How do the kids know they did there best if everyone gets the same trophy? Without going into politics doesn't this smack of socialism? The "Leave no child behind" plan was the biggest load of crap that ever hit the school systems. If the kids don't pass hold them back another year to take the grade over. As for the being late that is my pet peeve. I hate to be late for anything. It's rude and wasteful. Emergencies come up, fine people understand. Showing up late for school or a job because no one holds them accountable is inexcusable. I agree with those who came up through the ranks by way of the School of Hard Knocks. If you can do the job as well or better than someone with a 4 year degree why do they get paid more because they have a piece of paper saying they spent 4 years getting that paper. I just want to learn everything that is presented in this class to make me more successful in my business. But then I'm old school and I'm glad to hear I'm not alone.

[74w300uteline]

On being prompt

Being late sends the message that YOUR time is more valuable than MY time. Not the type of message YOU want to send to people who can further your career. warning I give to apprentices.

[Ron in Indiana]

It was business as usual at this weeks class. The princess was again 20 minutes late which didn't seem to bother her in the least. One of the Hispanic kids came in 45-60 minutes late and had to use the school phone to check in due his being on house arrest. He had to call in again before leaving. I don't see much future in painting for this guy. The other two were AWOL for the second week in a row. In a bit of irony as the taco folder came in the princess said sarcasticly , nice of you to join us. This is the pot calling the kettle black. Amazing, simply amazing.

[Bob Thompson]

It was business as usual at this weeks class. The princess was again 20 minutes late which didn't seem to bother her in the least. One of the Hispanic kids came in 45-60 minutes late and had to use the school phone to check in due his being on house arrest. He had to call in again before leaving. I don't see much future in painting for this guy. The other two were AWOL for the second week in a row. In a bit of irony as the taco folder came in the princess said sarcasticly , nice of you to join us. This is the pot calling the kettle black. Amazing, simply amazing.

I feel your pain Ron. A few years back I took a JC course in welding to brush up what I already knew and to get the basics of TIG.
Of the eleven guys in the class I was the oldest and only two others were serious about the class. The rest wandered in whenever the notion took them. I often thought some would burst into flames the moment they struck an arc. Such was the odor of alchohol eminating from them. Eventually the instructor weeded most of the clinkers out with either math or safety tests.
I suppose a basic aptitude test before admittance to that sort of class would be discrimanatory.
What bugs me about the whole thing is that many JC's are dropping their shop classes or manual arts due to budget issues. I know a young guy who came home from Afghanistan and can't get a place in a welding course at the JC because he isn't on some sort of public assistance. I have counseled him to use the miitary assistance programs to get into one of the better trade schools. I haven't heard back though.
Vexing isn't it?

[Ron in Indiana]

Bob, I am of course the oldest in this class. My kids are older than the kids in this class. The good thing is the college has just rented this brand new building and has stocked it with new equipment. Some of which has come up missing already after only 3 semesters. The veteran should have the first chance at a class in my opinion but we know how our vets are treated. That is the sad part indeed. I hope he can get the training he desires.