Originality vs Modification — an exchange

[divingrocks]

Dirka Dirka Dodgehammmed Jihad!

OK,
Here is another example of resto-mod...fortunately they chose a post war platform

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dodge-Power-...US_Cars_Trucks

[Chewie]

I've said it before; flatheads have a place in this world. Just not in my garage.

I'm a big fan of OD transmissions, too.

These trucks can't be made safe enough for highway travel though, even with V8's and disc brakes. Remember the carryall that was rear ended by the pickup?

Here in the Midwest I am surrounded by county blacktops and gravel roads, where traffic is slower and much of it AG based. Perfect for these trucks..

[DavidGB]

Re: Chrysler Straight 8s

tbone1004,
You can widen your search considerably since Chrysler made that engine for many years. In the '40s most of them will be backed up by a fluid drive tranny.
Pre-fluid drive engines will have 3 speeds and possibly overdrives. These engines are very long. The straight 8s were also produced for various industrial applications (pumps etc.) Straight 8s are not a common item and some parts are either very difficult to find or very expensive or both. If you can fit one into an M37 I imagine you would have the only one.
David

[tbone1004]

To the OP
http://columbiaclassiccars.com/
If you're having issues selling the Packard, call these guys. They are packard nuts, have a boat load of them and are buying, selling, and restoring them all day. Granted they're in Maine, but the owner Mike Fiori is spectacular with his massive waxed mustache and old school style, but more importantly, he is a die hard Packard guy and would be able ot help you sell yours as it sits.

I'm going restomod route, the M37 I have has already been somewhat modified from original by the VFD that had it forever before I bought it, but that's mainly because like the guys in VA, I want a DD that is usable and safe to drive on modern roads and unfortunately a truck that has a 45-50mph top speed and slows to 30mph on just about all hills is not safe on the roads these days for any normal driving conditions. I think keeping some sense of originality in the vehicle is important which is why from the exterior it will appear mostly stock, but there is no substitute for a modern drivetrain if the original drivetrain is insufficient for the vehicle. If the M37 weighed half or ever 2/3's what it does then the flathead would be more than adequate and I would leave it in there, as it stands I'm trying to find a '49 Chrysler New Yorker with the I-8, but the difference is that car actually has a 0-60 time, and will cruise at 65-70mph safely without blowing itself up. Unfortunately our trucks can't say that and because of that, they really aren't safe to be driving on normal roads especially with posted minimum speed limits

[DavidGB]

Its pretty much all good, and market forces work.

Unless something is so utterly rare that it should be put in a museum to be preserved for posterity, I feel the owner of any vehicle should have the right to enjoy it in the manner that works best for them. Since truly rare items tend to get very expensive I figure if I can buy something then it hasn't reached that category of the truly rarified.

Since at all times in my life so far, I have owned at least one "normal" vehicle to fill the bill of "daily driver", etc I am under no pressure to make anything meet current driving conditions. (Although it is fun to do that.) Therefore, my approach is this, if, when I buy a vehicle, it is fully functional and roadable I tend to leave it alone and enjoy it as it is. That is why I bought such a vehicle. On the other hand, if I buy a vehicle that is seriously not running etc., then it usually is because I want to try my hand at modifying it in some way. I, for one, can't afford to carve up a perfectly good vehicle when there are plenty of non running, or wrecked, or parts ones for a fraction of the cost. Simple economics at work here.

One other thing. I am happy to listen to friendly, reasoned, arguments on this or any subject, in fact such arguments can be quite enjoyable, but I have no patience or respect for anyone who thinks they can just tell me how it is.

David

[Desoto61]

Good, now that we're not clogging up productive people we can feel free to waste electrons.

I don't drive on the freeway unless it is the only option, the shortest route between Ventura and Santa Barbara requires about five miles of freeway driving. Fortunately, that section is under construction and posted speed limit is 55 currently and 65 otherwise. My ambulance did 55 with every ounce of throttle...lol...not a speed to try and maintain...45 was far more mechanically prudent. I know several folks who drive theirs on the freeway at 45 with the orange "tractor" triange to events, some also use a flashing yellow beacon denoting a hazard....none have been driven off the road to the best of my knowledge.
Historic restorations are the way to go...period.

If I restored my PW back to original condition it would be a very pretty lawn ornament. Usless to do much more than look pretty, impress people, and hold up traffic. It would barely be capable of doing the speeds necessary to go to the home center 5 miles from my house, let alone further, especially with a bed full of towing equipment. It becomes a toy, which is a bigger crime in my opinion then what I'm doing to it.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who would look at the truck in pictures or in person at some free car show and tell me how great it is to see and how beautiful a truck it is, but most wouldn't want to buy it from me for what they swear it is worth.

So my way I get a truck that should hopefully keep as much of the original character as possible, while bringing it's usability to a state that is at least on the low end of acceptable for todays roads, which means it will continue to do exactly what it was designed to do over 60 years ago, and I like that.

And don't kid yourselves, these were amazing vehicles for their day, but compared to todays vehicles they are a rock tied to a stick vs a quality hammer.

[Bob Thompson]

Yes, I love a good debate as well as the next, maybe we should just start a seperate thread, though I'm sure there probably is one already, and let this one get back to showing us all the beautiful work these guys have been doing.

A gracious and laudable sentiment. Hear, hear!

[Bruce in BC]

Have you ever noticed how flexible many true rodders are?

Alex you just wrote one of the more introspective and knowledgable perspectives on where the world of automotive enthusiasts is headed.

(1) You got your fundamentalist, inflexible, purist, jihadist, nazi restorthisorelseists

(2) you have your automotive decorators

(3) and you have this group of folks who keep the old trash on the road and bring smiles to the faces of the great unwashed.

(4) and we got the 1%ers, the artists, the folks with feet in both camps. These are the guys who do not walk around with their chest puffed out. They can look at the Duane Spence roadster or a fully restored Duesenburg and appreciate it for what it is. They are the guys that walk by 50 shiny cars and then roll over to look under a Thames panel or a 57 Buick with flames. They offer guidance without holding to dogma. They look at some guys half finished model A pickup and ' say I might have some parts for that" they are the heart and soul of what this is about. The relationships, the helping hands, the new friendships, the guidance , the ideas of what makes this hobby so great. These are the guys who will not take cash from someone who can not afford to pay but will ask what they have to swap. these are the guys who listen to the guy who talks up his restored truck and do not bother to point out that the vehicle has the wrong engine or that the oil bath cleaner is two years out of date.
I am amazed by the talent and varied skills we have seen on this thread . The help , the trading of ideas and help with leads and gift of parts. That is what this is about. Not the fact that the tires do not have 1942 air in them. And yes that will be a product that you can buy for your restoration. Canned and dated air. What is sad and funny is there are folks out there who will buy the stuff. I do not think I will point out to them how silly the concept is.

Off to the shop, the mess is winning.
Carryall progress- the rear calipers lines are hooked up, got to do the hard lines next.

I agree , it is time to get back on task. Lets post Carryalls and their progress or lack there of

[Alxj64]

He who rejects change is the architect of decay. The only human institution which rejects progress is the cemetery. - Harold Wilson

[Desoto61]

Yes, I love a good debate as well as the next, maybe we should just start a seperate thread, though I'm sure there probably is one already, and let this one get back to showing us all the beautiful work these guys have been doing.

[Bob Thompson]

At the risk of stirring the pot, are you saying that yours is the one true way? Are all others infidels and do you have plans for a cleansing Jihad?

Gordon, Please remove this if you think it too inflamatory?

all in fun though.

[Longhunter7]

Choices?

Gentlemen,

Lets keep it friendly! There are many directions an owner can go with a project.

You don't have to agree, but show some respect for their choice on what they do with their truck!

[divingrocks]

Safety Triangle

I don't drive on the freeway unless it is the only option, the shortest route between Ventura and Santa Barbara requires about five miles of freeway driving. Fortunately, that section is under construction and posted speed limit is 55 currently and 65 otherwise. My ambulance did 55 with every ounce of throttle...lol...not a speed to try and maintain...45 was far more mechanically prudent. I know several folks who drive theirs on the freeway at 45 with the orange "tractor" triange to events, some also use a flashing yellow beacon denoting a hazard....none have been driven off the road to the best of my knowledge.
Historic restorations are the way to go...period.

[Alxj64]

Well this all escalated quickly...

I am not new to the harassment from purists, I still have a letter that I got in the mail from someone on the WW2 Derdge Forum that literally threatened to burn my garage down and called me a snot nose brat with no respect for anything, I am what is wrong with the country these days, etc etc. I've been meaning to scan it and share it.

I've come across the same issue above regarding the "if you want it saved so bad, then its more than for sale". I even had an offer from someone on my green WC53 and I told them I would accept. It was an outlandish $ offer so I agreed just to see how far they really were going to go. After I agreed, I never heard back from them. I have even sent them messages on two different boards and I see them log in and post and see them respond but they do not respond to me. Guess the hot air just had to escape.

In regards to the piecing and parting of these trucks, its a sad reality that not all can be saved. Some must pass to the grave in order for others to live. If trucks didn't reach the point of being beyond saving and being parted out, then those of us that need or desire original parts would have no such source. Granted I also hate to see any salvagable truck cut up, and that does get under my skin, I am guilty of parting out trucks. However, I don't scrap a single piece of them unless is farmer welded angle iron that I cut off of it. I've got a pile of original parts that I still pull from and help the community with. Nothing from these trucks is "trash", that I have determined. And thats the case with most people that part out these things; They are helping save the trucks that still have the life in them to be saved but are the ones that are sacking up and pulling apart the truck to save each little part. Additionally, the WORK required to cleanly break down a truck for parts is incredible and delicate and can be frustrating. The people that don't just take a torch to them, I commend because the easy way is never the correct way. They my earn money in parting them out, but I know myself personally it just goes right back into saving the trucks that can be saved by buying more parts.

In regards to original vs restomod: If you live in an area that you can in fact take that truck "back in time" and ride down a country road and drive it and hear the sounds, smell the smells, etc etc, then by all means do so but as I drove into work this morning on a Highway that the speed limit was 55, and traffic was traveling a steady and minimum 70 mph, people were bobbing and weaving, cutting off each other, forcing each other out of lanes and into the shoulder, it further enforced the fact that unless you have a location to use such a time machine, where vehicles aren't bearing down on you, passing against head on traffic on a 2 lane road, risking their life, your life, and everyone around simply because you are doing the speed limit of 45 mph (top end of an original truck) instead of the 10 mph over that they want to travel... its no longer a trip back down memory lane and its a dangerous, unpleasant, and frustrating experience. You may say, "screw em, they can wait and get where they are going whenever they get there" but thats not the case. There are more and more of them everyday that see an old truck and view it as just something in their way rather than appreciating it the way you or I would. The true "car guy" is a long lost breed with so few of us left. I don't even mention to people anymore that I'm "into cars and trucks" as they think I buy running boards and visors and bolt them to a truck, or I attend street racing events at night. Thankfully none of that is the case but its sad how much the reality is that the "car guy" has become no more than a "parts buyer with a screw driver." I don't believe a single soul who has posted in this thread falls into that category.. which is why I hang around here.

Desoto can vouch for me on this one, that where he and I live, we are "Interstate Locked" as in you simply can NOT leave town without going over a bridge or through a tunnel that the speed limit is less than 60 mph. Even the "back ways out of town" are 60-65 mph with posted MINIMUM speed limits. So powertrain changes, steering, and brakes are necessary.

The other little thing that dawned on me this morning was the whole "value of something restored vs. restomodded".

If there are 5 of something, 3 were lost over time, by all means I can see the remaining 2 being restored for the sake of history.

How many VPWs are out there still, restored by the numbers? How many Carryalls and WCs are restored by the numbers? Quite a few. When history is preserved in small quantities it is desired AND respected more than if there are multiples. If there were as many Carryalls left as there are AM Generals or mighty mights, would they be as sought after? Would people care as much?

Additionally, every day the average car on the road performs better and better. I sat behind some oddball import, cheap, bare bones car this morning in traffic and with it being the least advanced vehicle produced currently, it still has disc brakes, ABS, traction aid, AC, power steering, etc etc... Without making changes to these "non-perfect" trucks, they are still going to become obsolete in regards to driving them. And the whole reason I am building my truck the way I am is I want to DRIVE IT. I want to drive it everywhere. Yea, the sights and smells and mechanics of the original are cool. But... Thats not going to get me to a company christmas party where the truck gets vallet parked in front of the building with the $100k Benzs and CTS-V Caddys and people are more interested in it than the "show room cars". "Original condition" is not going to take my Airstream trailer from my house, down the outer edge of the Outer Banks on a surfing expedition. An original isn't going to let me drive the 9 hours to the Smokey Mountains and take it through the forest roads. An original truck will have me locked around home, but with traffic stuck behind me, people impatiently and dangerously passing, not to mention you always have the genius that pulls out in front of you because they'll be ****ed if they "get stuck behind that slow old truck" so instead they feel safer forcing you to lock up an old truck with drum brakes, NDTs, etc. No matter the "safe" following distance... someone will take it from you.

In order to survive you must adapt... in order for these vehicles to survive, they must be adapted just the way desoto said above. Changes to ignition systems, charging systems, tire types, etc. Its an evolution. I bet nobody on this forum is using an old Windows 3.0 computer... why? Because as things evolve, so must you.

In regards of restored value vs. resto-mod value. I'd like to find a completely restored Carryall that will even compare in value to my resto-modded machine when its done. Same goes for many of the FFPWs. People will spend more for something they can drive to events and be seen in rather than something they have to store away and only get to drive in Parades or trailer to shows; unless as I said above there are so few of them that they are "historically" preserved.

[Desoto61]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1HVcNrDipE

These military trucks weren't made in the numbers that civilian trucks were, so I'd much rather see plain old powerwagons get the ubermodifucations...

Actually from what I could find that's not exactly true. According to wikipedia

79,771 of the ½ ton trucks were produced during late 1940–1942 under War Department contracts.

and that's only the 1/2 ton trucks. While that includes a lot of variants it's also a lot of trucks, and 80% of the service parts interchanged with the later 3/4 ton units.

While per the Power Wagon site over the entire run (1946-1968) the WDX-WM300 production was 73,268. Not sure if this is just domestic sales or total production though. Remember they were very expensive for their time, which is why most (like mine) were originally commercial duty.

I suspect that the issue is probably that like the soldiers that used them many went over seas and didn't return. Regardless neither is exactly common, but we're not talking about pimping out the last Deusenberg either.