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I have driven both trucks with the ZF S5-42 (Fords at work and in my Cummins powered M37) as well as some with the NV4500 (Chevy's at work and one owned by a friend) and they all seemed about the same with the NV just a hair smoother, but not enough difference to sway my transmission choice...
Several folks I know who are active on the Ford forums say that the ZF can be made smoother with a change in gear lube, but I kinda like running the Mercon in it (spec fluid). :) Very innexpensive and available...
That made me remember that the "throws" between gears is huge (maybe because of the length of the shifter?).
Is there any aftermarket support, such as Hurst, for improving that?
Limited production run?
It was built for over 10 years and was used in GM, Chevrolet and Dodge. Hundreds of thousands of units were built in addition to a small special run still going to Advanced Adapters.
Tremendous Aftermarket support (check out Jeep aftermarket suppliers) it is perhaps the most sought after transmission for retro-fits.
My only reason for not running it, is size and weight for my application.
limited production run of FIXED 5th gear trannys.
im not saying they arent there, but look at what synchros cost. look at how much parts are, how much a new mainshaft is. so lets say they built 1,000,000 between 1992 and 2003 (iirc they were discontinued that year)
the fifth gear nut was "fixed" about 1/2 way through the production cycle. so in theory there would be about 500,000 useable PRODUCTION transmissions. out of those what % end up in junkyards/available for sale? .05?
anyway. if you add up how much the fiber synchros cost, and the mainshaft and a few other odds/ends there is no way, imo to but a rebuilt nv4500 for the bargain prices people advertise. labor is not free. not yours or mine.
i only posted MY opinion. not facts. those are still the reasons i dont like the NV. i ran one, and seriously considered it this time. im not saying i wouldnt run one again, i just cant stand a few of the issues.
add up synchros, output shaft (with 5th gear nut upgrade) and a seal kit. then tell me how you can buy a rebuilt one for <1000.
Don't disagree that they are too expensive, mainly because of the demand from Jeepers. Jeeps were plagued with horrible transmissions and every NV4500 in any condition is being snapped up and rebuilt and resold at sky high prices. There are indeed a few companies pressure washing these units and doing nothing else, sell them as "rebuilt" and for cheap, but these are outlaws on ebay for the most part.
The 5th gear issue has been repaired on the units sold by reputable companies and I'd venture that there are nearly zip-zero-none languishing in salvage yards. These units get nabbed as soon as they come in and go straight to the 20 or so companies that are rebuilding them.
It's still not my choice, but it's the trans of choice for many, many folks.
That made me remember that the "throws" between gears is huge (maybe because of the length of the shifter?).
Is there any aftermarket support, such as Hurst, for improving that?
It is a fairly long toss, but not that bad. My gearshift sticks up above the bottom edge of the dash (M37) and the throw from 3-4 (for instance) puts the lever about an inch from the dash on one side and the passenger seat cushion on the other...
I'm used to the long throws in the older farm trucks (50's/70's GM for the most part) that we still run back home, in my collection of MV's (2.5 and 5 tons) and in the medium and heavy duty trucks at work (mainly Eaton Roadranger nine speeds...).
The shift lever that comes stock with the ZF S5-42 is about about the same length as the lever found on the NP420 mounted in the M37B1's (estimate, it's been a while since I had them side by side on the workbench).
I have not looked into reducing the throw with any aftermarket stuff since I like the setup just the way it is, but then, I think that a truck should be a truck (if I want a short shift, I get in my Jetta turbo...). :)
It is a fairly long toss, but not that bad....... I have not looked into reducing the throw with any aftermarket stuff since I like the setup just the way it is, but then, I think that a truck should be a truck (if I want a short shift, I get in my Jetta turbo...). :)
Ha!Ha! Yeah, maybe I am getting soft, but combine the longer throws with harder shifting and a good 5 speed trans like the NV3550* spoil you for that Jetta feel, especially when you're on a 40 degree slope and trying to heel-toe and not go over the side.
This is probably why my truck has taken so long to finish, I hate settling for things that irritate me....= )
There are a slew of scrapyards in my neck of the woods so what is the likleihood of finding the ZF tranny in usable condition?
It seems like it would be fairly hard to find and costly due to the fact that it ran in a relatively limited number of trucks that will still be in usable condition. I was liking the SM465 because it ran from 68-91 and therefore finding one should be easier. Which do yall think will cost less, Sm465 w/bellhousing and ranger overdrive, or the ZF with all the adapters and stuff from Ford cummins?
I am just concerned about the major piece costs that differ from one to the other because I will have to buy a flywheel, clutch and rig up linkage either way. Price is an issue because I am 18 and going to technical school. I need to buy all the parts because the van i am watching on Dovebid is a Chevy with the TH400.
Does anybody know a company that remanufactures the ZF tranny?
There are a slew of scrapyards in my neck of the woods so what is the likleihood of finding the ZF tranny in usable condition?
Does anybody know a company that remanufactures the ZF tranny?
Depending on the yards in your area, it most likely will be easier to find the ZF transmission since Ford sold a lot of trucks in the time period that it was used, and they are newer and more likely to be in the yards (and not crushed to make space for incomming vehicles...).
Jasper (the big engine/transmission rebuild outfit, off the top of my head...). Not hard to do yourself with a kit.
ZF S5-42:
Transmission $700
Hydrualic clutch master (Tilton) $67 http://www.speedwaymotors.com/p/1133...Cylinders.html
Ford clutch slave and line $100
Clutch $300
Starter $150
Flywheel $75
Flywheel adapter $600
Intermediate drive shaft $200
RangerOD with SM465:
Bellhousing $30
RangerOD from Advance Adapters $1500
SM465 $200
Hydrualic clutch master (Tilton) $100 http://www.speedwaymotors.com/p/1133...Cylinders.html
Howe hydraulic through out bearing $150 http://www.speedwaymotors.com/p/1945...t-Bearing.html
Hydrualic clutch master (Tilton) $67
Clutch $300
Starter $150 (I’m not sure if the GM starter for the flexplate has the same Bendix gear as the one for the flywheel, may not need this…)
Flywheel $75
Intermediate drive shaft $200
Most of this is off the top of my head, but I’ve got a pretty good memory… Some of it I looked up, some I can verify tonight (I’ve got all the reciepts at the house). This all depends on your ability to scrounge as well…
FWIW: Rebuilding the Bosch VE rotary injector pump for a 4BT at my local shop (Chason Diesel) has a flat rate of $350… Look very carefully at the engine you are thinking of purchasing… They will last a lifetime, and aren’t that hard or expensive to put right if they have minor problems, but when they go south (from abuse), they can get very expensive…
It sounds like either option is going to run me about $2500 which is fine because my M37 was essentially free. With the ZF will I have any issues with engine placement or will it stay confined to the engine bay. I would once again like to thank everyone for their knowlodge and more importantly their willingness to share it. This forum is incredible!
and the fifth gear problem was limited to the dodge tranny used behind the diesel only. There are a couple of aftermarket fixes available for the nut problem but this would not be an issue behind a 4bt.
With the ZF will I have any issues with engine placement or will it stay confined to the engine bay.
With the ZF the engine sits very nicely in the engine bay, transmission shift tower lines right up the the hole in the floorboard (you will have to widen the floor pan about 1.5" thought, just slice it right up the center and add a strip...). Nice thing about the ZF is that the starter is on the passenger side, so the engine can be placed very close to the driver's side frame rail (as with the stock engine's offset placement) allowing for a straight driveline.
There are photos on my website showing the Cummins4BT/ZF S5-42 placement in my M37...
"Drivetrain.com out in Vegas (the place with the link provided above) is one of the highest priced suppliers of parts for the ZF transmission that I have run accross..."
I only posted that for reference info, but you're right about some very 'proud' pricing. I'd be interested in a link to a company with some more reasonable prices, do you, or does anybody, have any suggestions? I'm interested in NV4500 stuff myself.
On annother front what is the best way to gain the clearence necessary for the oil pan. I have seen blocks which I would like to shy away from and I have seen people customize the spring packs for clearence. What kind of Leaves are needed for this? I know I am going to have to notch the pan and that is fine. The trucks I am looking at go up for sale tomorrow and I am getting antsy to get started. Also on the tranny front. I sent out a message over the internet to scrap yards for the trannys. The best deal that came back was a rebuilt ZF S5-42 for $1300 plus core. Does that sound pricey?
I bought the bread truck today. It is a '79 with the 4BT a TH400 and has 124,000 miles. I figure there is a pretty good chance it has been rebuilt. It runs and drives and is about 4 hours from my house. It looks like it is going to be a fun trip to go get it.
I bought the bread truck today. It is a '79 with the 4BT a TH400 and has 124,000 miles. I figure there is a pretty good chance it has been rebuilt. It runs and drives and is about 4 hours from my house. It looks like it is going to be a fun trip to go get it.
Congratulations. We envy you. It sounds like it will be a fun trip.
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Why is it that the inside of old truck cabs smell so good?
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