New M37 owner

[MoparNorm]

Charles,
Don't mean to hijack the thread, but how does the QSB compare in height and weight to the 4 BTA?
Thanks for the update!
The only part that has failed on my 2002 Cummins 6 was the drive by wire "rheostat" it burned out at the 40 mph setting because I use my cruise control a lot at that setting for the city streets around here....= )
The 4 BT has proven to be too tall for my Jeep conversions, but a wider, longer, lower, lighter motor could be perfect....

[Charles Talbert]

Charles,
Don't mean to hijack the thread, but how does the QSB compare in height and weight to the 4 BTA?
Thanks for the update!
The only part that has failed on my 2002 Cummins 6 was the drive by wire "rheostat" it burned out at the 40 mph setting because I use my cruise control a lot at that setting for the city streets around here....= )
The 4 BT has proven to be too tall for my Jeep conversions, but a wider, longer, lower, lighter motor could be perfect....

Can't answer all questions yet. My Cummins rep was off last week & will be addressing all such questions over the next few days. He is due back on the job tomorrow. I don't have spec sheets on the QSB in respect to weight as yet. The one we have on the floor is slightly less height than the BTA, however not nearly enough less for a comfortable fit in a Jeep. I'm guessing weight may be a little less also, but again not nearly enough less for a Jeep class vehicle. I will let you know when we get complete specs. The way the engine is equipped with available options as to best fit a certain application can also have a drastic effect on dimensions & weight.

[jmacqueen]

Cummins prices are taking a HUGE leap as of Jan.1, '09. You may want to rethink that purchase of a factory reconditioned engine,(Cummins Recon) also. In most cases a recon engine has a core charge attached to it that will rock your world unless you have a core engine to turn in. We keep check on all Cummins options periodically, the recon engines will cost you more than a brand new engine after the core charge gets added in. Every once in a while they will move a few without the core charge if they get overstocked, but those opportunities are few. We deal directly with a Cummins factory distributor who gives us the best pricing along with free delivery to our door, but like you said, it ain't cheap. My Cummins rep who visits us every 2 weeks was by here a week ago with all the new info effective Jan '09. The 4BTA engines we have used & loved for years will be produced only in low volume in '09, this is going to push our cost up to over $10,000 for a new 4BTA that is equipped to our specs. for M37 & PW applications.

That's bad news for me. With all this financial crisis stuff going on most of my cash is tied up and I don't want to touch it next year.. I'll have to look and see what I can find used I guess, I've seen a few reconditioned ones for sale from a few used engine dealers too, I might have to look closer at those.

A 4bt is easier as I've already got enough lead on the parts to make it work, and they aren't hard to find.

The up & coming replacement of the 4BTA, the QSB 4.5 liter all electronic Cummins 4-cylinder will actually cost us less than the 3.9 liter 4BTA after Jan 1. Since we now know without a doubt that the 4BTA is on its way out in a speedy fashion, we are coming to the realization that we will be forced to make the change over to the QSB 4.5 engine for use as our repower engine. We have our first QSB sitting on the floor now that will be going into Doug & Kelli Crickey's M37 now underway. Since the QSB is longer & wider than the 4BTA, we are having to retool all components in our mounting system, none of the brackets used with the 4BTA even come close. Just giving it a casual look over & preliminary measure up tells me in some ways the installation will be easier & will actually eliminate some changes that the 4BTA required. Once we get our new mounting system worked out with the engine mounted in place, then we can see what the whole thing requires in other areas. I know one thing, extensive electrical wiring changes will be required because of the all electronic engine. It is a "drive by wire" set up that will have no mechanical accelerator pedal linkage, more simple mechanical design because of no linkage fabrication, not sure yet exactly how good the trade off may be. A more powerful engine; peak torque numbers rise around 15%, horsepower output goes up to 160. An interesting build for us, the challenge of all the changes, & the anticipation of an improved repower option in the end. More as we go along.

How about the 3.9 ISB? I haven't looked into them too much but I have been thinking about them. I understand they are quieter and little more powerful and fuel efficient.

I got a good look at QSB last year in London at the big international arms show there.. Cummins had a nice booth with one on a stand right out front.. It looked pretty good. I understand they are a lot quieter, vibrate less, and are more fuel efficient to boot.

Is the QSB any lighter? And exactly how much longer and wider is it?

I may just go that way, a lot of benefits if I can get a new one kitted out for under 10k, though the whole drive by wire thing gives a little pause.. That and the fact I imagine I would have a hard time specing the right parts to mate it with a spicer, and I don't have a lot of resources or time to figure that kind of thing out. Does the QSB block resemble the 4B in the back end? Easy SAE #3 stuff for it?

Anyway, all done blasting and painting now, I'll be able to tear my temporary booth down in a few days when the paint has set on the last parts.. Put a second coat on the bed floor today and got the remaining brackets etc. done..

It'll be nice to have that space back, roll the chassis inside and get the cab tub and bed on. Hard to work weeknights after work outside in the dark.

Trying to work up the motivation to go pull all the wheels back off and finish up the calipers and discs today, finish packing the hubs and toss new seals in em and be done with wheels for a while.

[MoparNorm]

...
A 4bt is easier as I've already got enough lead on the parts to make it work, and they aren't hard to find.

How about the 3.9 ISB? I haven't looked into them too much but I have been thinking about them. I understand they are quieter and little more powerful and fuel efficient....

Charles can correct me if I'm mistaken, but I believe that the 3.9 ISB is the 4 BT (also 3.9) but with the modern Common rail injection. That is why it's quieter and more powerful. Not sure about more efficient as the 6BTA became a little more thirsty when it became the 5.9 ISB

[MoparNorm]

Can't answer all questions yet. My Cummins rep was off last week & will be addressing all such questions over the next few days. He is due back on the job tomorrow. I don't have spec sheets on the QSB in respect to weight as yet. The one we have on the floor is slightly less height than the BTA, however not nearly enough less for a comfortable fit in a Jeep. I'm guessing weight may be a little less also, but again not nearly enough less for a Jeep class vehicle. I will let you know when we get complete specs. The way the engine is equipped with available options as to best fit a certain application can also have a drastic effect on dimensions & weight.

There are a few Jeeps running the 4BTA, but the height means serious oil pan modifications and a not so off road friendly lift kit to clear the front axle.
I think it is 29" tall vs 23" for the 4.2/4.0 so that 6" is kind of hard to hide....= )

Mopar Performance has been leaking hints of a 2.8 VM Turbo diesel kit, it's the same diesel that was offered in the Jeep Liberty for two years and has been exported to Europe for the last 7 years, but given Chrysler's financial condition, we may never see it....= (

[jmacqueen]

Well I got the rotors and calipers all sorted and on, wheels back on...

Gave the new repro bed floor a second coat of Alocron 218, should be tough as nails in a couple months of curing..

Didn't manage to get the new master cylinder fitted, but that's not a job for dusk and when I'm tired out from manhandling 4 combat wheels off and back on.

My little temp blasting/painting booth can come down this week, clean the place up and roll the chassis inside this week and star assembling the body next weekend.

None of my neighbors have complained yet about a frame and cab in the driveway, one old dude stopped by ad knew what it was, said he'd driven em in the service.. But I don't want to give folks too much to complain about so the sooner it's inside the better.

I was looking at the cummins site, looks like the QSB is a little less tall, but basically the same length, width and weight as a 4b, depending on how it's configured.

I'll cross the engine bridge when I come to it, I'm hoping to be ready for an engine by christmas, and was hoping to grab an engine in January but we'll see. If nothing else I might just throw new seals and gaskets on the flathead and run it for a while and take my time sorting a cummins out.

I want this truck legal and rolling one way or another before Feb, I'm 6 months behind on it already and I know myself well enough that if I don't keep momentum up this could drag out way too long.

[jmacqueen]

Charles can correct me if I'm mistaken, but I believe that the 3.9 ISB is the 4 BT (also 3.9) but with the modern Common rail injection. That is why it's quieter and more powerful. Not sure about more efficient as the 6BTA became a little more thirsty when it became the 5.9 ISB

That was my understanding as well.

Also there seem to be 3 QSB models, but mainly an 04 and a 07 emmisions models. There a brand new 04 QSB on Ebay right now for $4800.

[Charles Talbert]

Charles can correct me if I'm mistaken, but I believe that the 3.9 ISB is the 4 BT (also 3.9) but with the modern Common rail injection. That is why it's quieter and more powerful. Not sure about more efficient as the 6BTA became a little more thirsty when it became the 5.9 ISB

Yes that's basically the main difference except for the gear train is on the rear instead of the front. Quieter, it is, no more power to speak of though according to spec sheets. Not sure about economy. I spoke to our rep about using some ISB's a couple of years back. He didn't recommend it at that time, no US manufacture & according to him US dealers were accessed to very little info., he wasn't even sure warranty service could be provided via a US dealer at that time. That has likely changed, but I can't verify without checking with him first. My understanding, the newer QSB is a much improved version.

Be careful with ebay purchases, the engines are likely not equipped well for the application. If you make a purchase at $4,800 for example, pay freight to get it to your location, then have to access Cummins parts for the needed components to get it right for a M37 application, you can have new engine price in it before you know it. Buying a new engine set up like it needs to be for the application is cheaper than having to go back through the Cummins parts system. That gets outrageous very quickly, example: flywheel $800, flywheel housing, $1,200, etc. That is one reason we never installed any take-out engines, plus all this cost & still it's "as is, where is" with no warranty.

[jmacqueen]

Yes that's basically the main difference except for the gear train is on the rear instead of the front. Quieter, it is, no more power to speak of though according to spec sheets. Not sure about economy. I spoke to our rep about using some ISB's a couple of years back. He didn't recommend it at that time, no US manufacture & according to him US dealers were accessed to very little info., he wasn't even sure warranty service could be provided via a US dealer at that time. That has likely changed, but I can't verify without checking with him first. My understanding, the newer QSB is a much improved version.

Hmm wasn't aware it's not a U.S. manufacture.

Be careful with ebay purchases, the engines are likely not equipped well for the application. If you make a purchase at $4,800 for example, pay freight to get it to your location, then have to access Cummins parts for the needed components to get it right for a M37 application, you can have new engine price in it before you know it. Buying a new engine set up like it needs to be for the application is cheaper than having to go back through the Cummins parts system. That gets outrageous very quickly, example: flywheel $800, flywheel housing, $1,200, etc. That is one reason we never installed any take-out engines, plus all this cost & still it's "as is, where is" with no warranty.

Yeah that one is definitely not for me, I was just commenting I saw one up there. In fact looking at it it's not even an actual QSB at all..

And I'm not particularly fond of the idea of buying something I don't know what it is, or can't see it before buying..

Dunno how helpful a cummins rep will be at helping me get an engine specced out correctly though. Hopefully it's not more trouble than he thinks it's worth for a one off sale.

I have a month or two to figure something out though.

There's also these guys, I talked to them and they seem like good enough folks, anyone ever heard anything about them? They offer a cummins 6bt 5.9 repower kit for a duece and half. That should work out nice for an M-37 using a spicer 3053a transmission, at least the flywheel, housing, clutch and pressure plate anyway. Mounts and linkages would be another story.

http://www.powerupfit.com/page%203.html

Does the QSB look like it will use the same flywheel, housing and such as a 4bt does?

Another advantage I believe the QSB has is it's components are all compatible with bio diesel, no o-rings melting or fuel line issues.

[MoparNorm]

...Another advantage I believe the QSB has is it's components are all compatible with bio diesel, no o-rings melting or fuel line issues.

While ethanol posses that problem, I'm not aware of any rubber issues with bio-diesel?
Filter issues, as it will flush out the gunk left over from petroleum diesel, and lift pump issues, but I have not heard of o-rings or rubber having any issues with Veggie bio.

[jmacqueen]

While ethanol posses that problem, I'm not aware of any rubber issues with bio-diesel?
Filter issues, as it will flush out the gunk left over from petroleum diesel, and lift pump issues, but I have not heard of o-rings or rubber having any issues with Veggie bio.

From the cummins site...

1. What materials are incompatible with biodiesel?Natural rubber, butyl rubber and some types of nitrile rubber (depending on chemical composition, construction and application) may be particularly susceptible to degradation. Also, copper, bronze, brass, tin, lead and zinc can cause deposit formations. The use of these materials and coatings must be avoided for fuel tanks and fuel lines. Fuel fittings and connectors are acceptable due to the small surface area in contact with the fuel.
   Note: Contact your vehicle manufacturer to determine if any of the OEM supplied components are at risk with biodiesel in order to prevent engine or vehicle damage
2. Why didn't Cummins include engines prior to 2002?The main reason not to include engines earlier than 2002 is due to materials compatibility concerns. Some fuel systems in pre-2002 engines contain components that are not compatible with a B20 biodiesel blend. 2002 and later engines contain fuel system components that are compatible.

[MoparNorm]

Thanks for the list. I think you'll find that most every item on that list is not compatible with modern fuels and isn't found in newer vehicles, but may be found on an M37 Era vehicle.
Sort of a "cover our exposure" from the attorneys, kind of list....= )

[jmacqueen]

Hmm...

Ok, another question maybe nobody can answer.. ;)

I ordered some seals for my transfer case, and sleeves for the yokes..

The seals in the T-case are double seals, that is there's a rubber seal, and a felt wiper as well.

The NAPA seals I got are a NOS 21213, the right size but a single lip seal without the wiper.

So I looked at the original seal, and it's a Garlock Klozure 63X5687F-1. I called Garlock and they say they still make them, as part # 23078-5687.

Both the old and new Garlock #'s interchange to a NAPA NOS 21210, but the picture on the NAPA web site search is definitely wrong and the description don't seem right, though they could be.

Anyone got any ideas or experience on this one?

Charles, if you read this what do you use in T-case rebuilds..

The seals I have would work, but I have to think Dodge specified a seal with a felt wiper for a reason, and I think I'd rather have that seal if I can find it.

[Charles Talbert]

Ok, another question maybe nobody can answer.. ;)

I ordered some seals for my transfer case, and sleeves for the yokes..

The seals in the T-case are double seals, that is there's a rubber seal, and a felt wiper as well.

The NAPA seals I got are a NOS 21213, the right size but a single lip seal without the wiper.

So I looked at the original seal, and it's a Garlock Klozure 63X5687F-1. I called Garlock and they say they still make them, as part # 23078-5687.

Both the old and new Garlock #'s interchange to a NAPA NOS 21210, but the picture on the NAPA web site search is definitely wrong and the description don't seem right, though they could be.

Anyone got any ideas or experience on this one?

Charles, if you read this what do you use in T-case rebuilds..

The seals I have would work, but I have to think Dodge specified a seal with a felt wiper for a reason, and I think I'd rather have that seal if I can find it.

Stay away from the felt wipers, that is the worst technology on earth. Holds moisture & will cause the yoke to rust really bad. What you need is a National seal #410308, redi-sleeve #99212. 4 of each will fix you up. These are a double lip, double case heavy duty seal.

Now if you want Garlock, I have a bunch still sealed in military packaging I'll give to you. They aren't worth 2 cents, every one I ever saw used leaks. I don't mean a seep either. They are a cheap seal & junk in my opinion.

[jmacqueen]

Stay away from the felt wipers, that is the worst technology on earth. Holds moisture & will cause the yoke to rust really bad. What you need is a National seal #410308, redi-sleeve #99212. 4 of each will fix you up. These are a double lip, double case heavy duty seal.

Now if you want Garlock, I have a bunch still sealed in military packaging I'll give to you. They aren't worth 2 cents, every one I ever saw used leaks. I don't mean a seep either. They are a cheap seal & junk in my opinion.

Ok, that sound sensible.. The federal mogul ecatalog online actually lists old power wagons and shows national 410308 for the NP200 two speed T-case.

The National 410308 cross references to the NAPA 21213 seals I have now.. The 410308 also cross references to the NAPA 21210 that I got on a cross reference from the Garlock #

The sleeves I have match your numbers already. Seems like I'm good to go, just a lot thinner seal.

Thanks Charles..