Originality vs Modification — an exchange

[Bruce in BC]

I have a 29 Packard 626 in barn find condition . Had it for sale a few times at 6 grand. Guy I got it from paid 9 for it in the same condition . I have never had a decent offer for it. Parting it out seems a bit harsh .
Although if I put it in the back yard and set fire and recorded the action I am willing to bet a could make that 6 grand putting the video on Utube. kind of thing that would go viral and drive folks to hissy fits and tears.
Funny thing is I have given a few decent cars away over the year and chopped up quite a few too. Just not willing to do it with the Packard.
It has been taking up space for too many years and now it is personal- it pays me cash or I squish it.
Anyways we want to stay on topic here.
I moved the Packard out of the shop to make room for the Carryall. See how I got back on topic. The Carryall won out on shop space and attention.

What is that old quote? "anyone can restore a car, it takes a real man to chop one up"
parting one out makes more sense than crushing the thing.....or toasting it up in the back forty.

[divingrocks]

to chop or not to chop...that is the question.

He-Man Comrade Bruce...
Chopping up a historical vehicle like a carryall or in my case an ambulance is blasphemy. All the super modifications I see to them tend to make me only ask why bother making hypermods at all? Perhaps it's just my taste and experience. I too wanted to do subversive things to my ambulance, but others in the hobby reasoned them out of me. Having neared the end of my restoration, I take simple pride in putting all the original bits back in place as they were from the factory. Driving it as it was intended creates my own time machine...all the original sounds, smells and personality come alive. What you are doing isn't to my taste, but I am impressed with the work Alex is doing from an engineering standpoint. Some of what you have done reminds me of the Mexicanized rides here in CA where the owner has made one too many trips to the bling store.

[Bruce in BC]

I new I was right when hot rods made it to pebbles beach.

I sold some exhaust manifold to a guy at one time. Got 700 bucks or something insane. He was happy because he was restoring some chevy product . I was happy because I got them off a chev wagon and the numbers happened to match . Punch line from some twit, "but those are not original, they are from a different vehicle" and I have done this with manifolds more than once. Ditto with carbs, $300 for a dusty old one I was going to toss out. And then there is the rear end I took out of one of my rods because a guy wanted it for a restoration. I made money on that deal and ended up with a better rear end. My truck was not complete but I tried to save the original frame, this was a mistake I will never repeat again.

The thing that makes most of the builds on this thread worth looking at is the quality of the build and the vehicles are owner built. There is no bling. Not some bolt on poop made in China that came out of a box.

If I came across a coffin nosed Cord I might attempt a restoration on it, but I could hot rod it too. They are just vehicles, after you have owned a few hundred of them, the glow wears off. There are guys out there restoring their commodore 64 computers or old hoover vacuums. Sounds dull to me.

I could see myself with a restored Carryall, but I am not sure I would enjoy it much. Now a lowrider Carryall , with a 4bt, traveling across the Nevada desert with the rear dragging and magnesium sparks flying through the air, that would be a thing of beauty and I would enjoy it a bunch.

Lot more saving vehicles than chopping them up going on here though. Some of this stuff that we are saving would have gone to the crusher a few years back, speaking of which I bet that is still happening, old fellow passes away and his restoration only vehicles end up in the crusher.
With a mint tailgate...

[Bob Thompson]

Rod,restore,recycle...

A few years back a fairly nice fellow and his wife were subjected to the wrath of the entire Chrysler collector community. His crime was that he had built a high end street rod using a Chrysler Airflow as the basis. It turned out very nice and his efforts overcame a steadfastly ugly design.

When the W.C. clubs and aficionados caught wind of it the owners of the car were nearly lynched. They surrounded the car at car shows and bemoaned the loss of a rare classic.

Oddly not one of them showed the slightest interest when the car had been advertised on several occasions previous to its conversion.
There are always people about that want to restrict your right to do whatever you want with your own property.

I try not to hack up restorable cars unless I have a vision for what it could be with a slice here and there. I try to pass on cars that are too nice to rod to others who wish to restore them. I am not however, so altruistic that I want to run the entire hobby out of my own pocket.

I have restored Packards and found that community to be ravenous for undiscovered cars. With minimal advertising in the appropriate club journal you should come out pretty well.

[Desoto61]

I wouldn't own mine if the only option was a stock restoration, sure it would still be fun, but I just don't have the time, money, and space for a truck that can barely be used as a truck in an urban environment. If I had a truck like my Desoto I'd have a harder time doing what I'm doing, but it wasn't so I don't feel bad modifying parts that weren't there or weren't complete when I started.

We complain about all the modifications people have done in the past but if that was what had to happen to have it continue to be useful and survive for another day then it was worth it. If my modifications allow this truck to live and work for another 60 years then were they really so bad? Especially when most of the people that complain about the modifications wouldn't be willing to pay a decent price for the truck to prevent it.

Lots of people told me how much more my truck would be worth if I restored it, but when I offered to sell the wrecker parts or work out some sort of trade for a "normal" truck there were crickets. You can't please everyone, but hey it's your time and money so why try to please anyone else anyway?

I personally love seeing all the various ideas and options, some may not be my style but it doesn't mean I won't take the idea and run in my own direction!

[divingrocks]

relish this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1HVcNrDipE

These military trucks weren't made in the numbers that civilian trucks were, so I'd much rather see plain old powerwagons get the ubermodifucations...

[Desoto61]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1HVcNrDipE

These military trucks weren't made in the numbers that civilian trucks were, so I'd much rather see plain old powerwagons get the ubermodifucations...

Actually from what I could find that's not exactly true. According to wikipedia

79,771 of the ½ ton trucks were produced during late 1940–1942 under War Department contracts.

and that's only the 1/2 ton trucks. While that includes a lot of variants it's also a lot of trucks, and 80% of the service parts interchanged with the later 3/4 ton units.

While per the Power Wagon site over the entire run (1946-1968) the WDX-WM300 production was 73,268. Not sure if this is just domestic sales or total production though. Remember they were very expensive for their time, which is why most (like mine) were originally commercial duty.

I suspect that the issue is probably that like the soldiers that used them many went over seas and didn't return. Regardless neither is exactly common, but we're not talking about pimping out the last Deusenberg either.

[Alxj64]

Well this all escalated quickly...

I am not new to the harassment from purists, I still have a letter that I got in the mail from someone on the WW2 Derdge Forum that literally threatened to burn my garage down and called me a snot nose brat with no respect for anything, I am what is wrong with the country these days, etc etc. I've been meaning to scan it and share it.

I've come across the same issue above regarding the "if you want it saved so bad, then its more than for sale". I even had an offer from someone on my green WC53 and I told them I would accept. It was an outlandish $ offer so I agreed just to see how far they really were going to go. After I agreed, I never heard back from them. I have even sent them messages on two different boards and I see them log in and post and see them respond but they do not respond to me. Guess the hot air just had to escape.

In regards to the piecing and parting of these trucks, its a sad reality that not all can be saved. Some must pass to the grave in order for others to live. If trucks didn't reach the point of being beyond saving and being parted out, then those of us that need or desire original parts would have no such source. Granted I also hate to see any salvagable truck cut up, and that does get under my skin, I am guilty of parting out trucks. However, I don't scrap a single piece of them unless is farmer welded angle iron that I cut off of it. I've got a pile of original parts that I still pull from and help the community with. Nothing from these trucks is "trash", that I have determined. And thats the case with most people that part out these things; They are helping save the trucks that still have the life in them to be saved but are the ones that are sacking up and pulling apart the truck to save each little part. Additionally, the WORK required to cleanly break down a truck for parts is incredible and delicate and can be frustrating. The people that don't just take a torch to them, I commend because the easy way is never the correct way. They my earn money in parting them out, but I know myself personally it just goes right back into saving the trucks that can be saved by buying more parts.

In regards to original vs restomod: If you live in an area that you can in fact take that truck "back in time" and ride down a country road and drive it and hear the sounds, smell the smells, etc etc, then by all means do so but as I drove into work this morning on a Highway that the speed limit was 55, and traffic was traveling a steady and minimum 70 mph, people were bobbing and weaving, cutting off each other, forcing each other out of lanes and into the shoulder, it further enforced the fact that unless you have a location to use such a time machine, where vehicles aren't bearing down on you, passing against head on traffic on a 2 lane road, risking their life, your life, and everyone around simply because you are doing the speed limit of 45 mph (top end of an original truck) instead of the 10 mph over that they want to travel... its no longer a trip back down memory lane and its a dangerous, unpleasant, and frustrating experience. You may say, "screw em, they can wait and get where they are going whenever they get there" but thats not the case. There are more and more of them everyday that see an old truck and view it as just something in their way rather than appreciating it the way you or I would. The true "car guy" is a long lost breed with so few of us left. I don't even mention to people anymore that I'm "into cars and trucks" as they think I buy running boards and visors and bolt them to a truck, or I attend street racing events at night. Thankfully none of that is the case but its sad how much the reality is that the "car guy" has become no more than a "parts buyer with a screw driver." I don't believe a single soul who has posted in this thread falls into that category.. which is why I hang around here.

Desoto can vouch for me on this one, that where he and I live, we are "Interstate Locked" as in you simply can NOT leave town without going over a bridge or through a tunnel that the speed limit is less than 60 mph. Even the "back ways out of town" are 60-65 mph with posted MINIMUM speed limits. So powertrain changes, steering, and brakes are necessary.

The other little thing that dawned on me this morning was the whole "value of something restored vs. restomodded".

If there are 5 of something, 3 were lost over time, by all means I can see the remaining 2 being restored for the sake of history.

How many VPWs are out there still, restored by the numbers? How many Carryalls and WCs are restored by the numbers? Quite a few. When history is preserved in small quantities it is desired AND respected more than if there are multiples. If there were as many Carryalls left as there are AM Generals or mighty mights, would they be as sought after? Would people care as much?

Additionally, every day the average car on the road performs better and better. I sat behind some oddball import, cheap, bare bones car this morning in traffic and with it being the least advanced vehicle produced currently, it still has disc brakes, ABS, traction aid, AC, power steering, etc etc... Without making changes to these "non-perfect" trucks, they are still going to become obsolete in regards to driving them. And the whole reason I am building my truck the way I am is I want to DRIVE IT. I want to drive it everywhere. Yea, the sights and smells and mechanics of the original are cool. But... Thats not going to get me to a company christmas party where the truck gets vallet parked in front of the building with the $100k Benzs and CTS-V Caddys and people are more interested in it than the "show room cars". "Original condition" is not going to take my Airstream trailer from my house, down the outer edge of the Outer Banks on a surfing expedition. An original isn't going to let me drive the 9 hours to the Smokey Mountains and take it through the forest roads. An original truck will have me locked around home, but with traffic stuck behind me, people impatiently and dangerously passing, not to mention you always have the genius that pulls out in front of you because they'll be ****ed if they "get stuck behind that slow old truck" so instead they feel safer forcing you to lock up an old truck with drum brakes, NDTs, etc. No matter the "safe" following distance... someone will take it from you.

In order to survive you must adapt... in order for these vehicles to survive, they must be adapted just the way desoto said above. Changes to ignition systems, charging systems, tire types, etc. Its an evolution. I bet nobody on this forum is using an old Windows 3.0 computer... why? Because as things evolve, so must you.

In regards of restored value vs. resto-mod value. I'd like to find a completely restored Carryall that will even compare in value to my resto-modded machine when its done. Same goes for many of the FFPWs. People will spend more for something they can drive to events and be seen in rather than something they have to store away and only get to drive in Parades or trailer to shows; unless as I said above there are so few of them that they are "historically" preserved.

[divingrocks]

Safety Triangle

I don't drive on the freeway unless it is the only option, the shortest route between Ventura and Santa Barbara requires about five miles of freeway driving. Fortunately, that section is under construction and posted speed limit is 55 currently and 65 otherwise. My ambulance did 55 with every ounce of throttle...lol...not a speed to try and maintain...45 was far more mechanically prudent. I know several folks who drive theirs on the freeway at 45 with the orange "tractor" triange to events, some also use a flashing yellow beacon denoting a hazard....none have been driven off the road to the best of my knowledge.
Historic restorations are the way to go...period.

[Longhunter7]

Choices?

Gentlemen,

Lets keep it friendly! There are many directions an owner can go with a project.

You don't have to agree, but show some respect for their choice on what they do with their truck!

[Bob Thompson]

At the risk of stirring the pot, are you saying that yours is the one true way? Are all others infidels and do you have plans for a cleansing Jihad?

Gordon, Please remove this if you think it too inflamatory?

all in fun though.

[Desoto61]

Yes, I love a good debate as well as the next, maybe we should just start a seperate thread, though I'm sure there probably is one already, and let this one get back to showing us all the beautiful work these guys have been doing.

[Alxj64]

He who rejects change is the architect of decay. The only human institution which rejects progress is the cemetery. - Harold Wilson

[Bruce in BC]

Have you ever noticed how flexible many true rodders are?

Alex you just wrote one of the more introspective and knowledgable perspectives on where the world of automotive enthusiasts is headed.

(1) You got your fundamentalist, inflexible, purist, jihadist, nazi restorthisorelseists

(2) you have your automotive decorators

(3) and you have this group of folks who keep the old trash on the road and bring smiles to the faces of the great unwashed.

(4) and we got the 1%ers, the artists, the folks with feet in both camps. These are the guys who do not walk around with their chest puffed out. They can look at the Duane Spence roadster or a fully restored Duesenburg and appreciate it for what it is. They are the guys that walk by 50 shiny cars and then roll over to look under a Thames panel or a 57 Buick with flames. They offer guidance without holding to dogma. They look at some guys half finished model A pickup and ' say I might have some parts for that" they are the heart and soul of what this is about. The relationships, the helping hands, the new friendships, the guidance , the ideas of what makes this hobby so great. These are the guys who will not take cash from someone who can not afford to pay but will ask what they have to swap. these are the guys who listen to the guy who talks up his restored truck and do not bother to point out that the vehicle has the wrong engine or that the oil bath cleaner is two years out of date.
I am amazed by the talent and varied skills we have seen on this thread . The help , the trading of ideas and help with leads and gift of parts. That is what this is about. Not the fact that the tires do not have 1942 air in them. And yes that will be a product that you can buy for your restoration. Canned and dated air. What is sad and funny is there are folks out there who will buy the stuff. I do not think I will point out to them how silly the concept is.

Off to the shop, the mess is winning.
Carryall progress- the rear calipers lines are hooked up, got to do the hard lines next.

I agree , it is time to get back on task. Lets post Carryalls and their progress or lack there of

[Bob Thompson]

Yes, I love a good debate as well as the next, maybe we should just start a seperate thread, though I'm sure there probably is one already, and let this one get back to showing us all the beautiful work these guys have been doing.

A gracious and laudable sentiment. Hear, hear!