The 230 Headerfold project

[monkeymissile]

regrets

Side Project from ****...ha!ha!
I started to build them myself, but I had too many irons in too many fires....
I had a shop build them for me, under an exclusive 5 year deal.
With my luck, after 5 years and 1 day, there will be 3,000 orders placed....= )

Like I am fond of saying, it's better to regret something you have done than something you haven't done! Do you mind me asking who did your coating and how much it added to cost?

[MoparNorm]

Side Project from ****...ha!ha!
I started to build them myself, but I had too many irons in too many fires....
I had a shop build them for me, under an exclusive 5 year deal.
With my luck, after 5 years and 1 day, there will be 3,000 orders placed....= )

[monkeymissile]

The DTA Headers are 14 ga. with 3/8", laser cut flanges.
They come raw, chromed or coated, of the three in the bottom photo, the two on the left are ceramic coated, the one on the right is chromed. The mounted header is "chromex" coating.





They are coated inside and out, the finish is guaranteed for 3 years.

Norm,
you will definitely be my go-to guy if/when I consider a limited production run of the headerfold design. Did you fabricate them or have them made to your specs? Not sure if you're in manufacturing or if this was just a side project. They are spectacular and I hope mine will look half as good! Thanks.

[MoparNorm]

The DTA Headers are 14 ga. with 3/8", laser cut flanges.
They come raw, chromed or coated, of the three in the bottom photo, the two on the left are ceramic coated, the one on the right is chromed. The mounted header is "chromex" coating.





They are coated inside and out, the finish is guaranteed for 3 years.

[monkeymissile]

Just my two cents:
How many sets are you looking at making and how much per set are you trying to sell them for?
For the DTA Headers, my set up costs were $4,600., before one set was sold, plus my cost per set.
Selling each set at the lowest possible price was based upon selling 35 sets, in order to break even. The 35 set price was based upon the initial interest of 40 responses.
In reality, we had interest for only 23* sets.
So before you spend a great deal of time and effort on this I'd suggest getting at least 50 pre-orders for your endeavor otherwise you are going to be buried in overhead and doing this out of pocket.
*26 sets sold, 3 sets were bought back, another 3 sets were given away for various reasons and 3 sets were discounted to US servicemen.

Norm,
haven't gotten that far yet. I want to get a functioning prototype first and then consider a limited production if the shop I used to work for is interested in the project. People may look at my design and run away let alone request one! We'll see, still a long way to go!
Tell me more about your DTA headers.....

justin

[monkeymissile]

Jet-Hot

This site might get you in the ballpark, never dealt with them:

http://www.thermal-spray-depot.com/

Failed to bookmark, but somewhere I found an inexpensive powder hopper/spray assembly that looked pretty good for hobby use. A deep web search may be in order......

Jimmie,
Thanks, Jet-Hot seem to be THE guys for ceramic header coatings. I'll research some more later on. I think figuring out a coating solution (again, only if I use steel instead of stainless) needs to come after a functioning prototype is put through it's paces.

justin

[MoparNorm]

Just my two cents:
How many sets are you looking at making and how much per set are you trying to sell them for?
For the DTA Headers, my set up costs were $4,600., before one set was sold, plus my cost per set.
Selling each set at the lowest possible price was based upon selling 35 sets, in order to break even. The 35 set price was based upon the initial interest of 40 responses.
In reality, we had interest for only 23* sets.
So before you spend a great deal of time and effort on this I'd suggest getting at least 50 pre-orders for your endeavor otherwise you are going to be buried in overhead and doing this out of pocket.
*26 sets sold, 3 sets were bought back, another 3 sets were given away for various reasons and 3 sets were discounted to US servicemen.

[JimmieD]

This site might get you in the ballpark, never dealt with them:

http://www.thermal-spray-depot.com/

Failed to bookmark, but somewhere I found an inexpensive powder hopper/spray assembly that looked pretty good for hobby use. A deep web search may be in order......

[JimmieD]

Don't remember where I saw it but was looking at 'spray powder metal' units that fit to your home acety-torch & compressor. Seems that some were close to reasonable price, especially if you would be selling these sets or do a lot of fab stuff. It must have been cheap 'cause I was thinking of buying a setup hah!

Every imaginable type of powdered metal substrate is available for heat/spray application, very similar to straight up powder coating. Please, please, please thoroughly check out the MSDS for any metal spray! Some can kill ya quick!

Might try Eastwoods for a start to get some industry nomenclature on process terms then do a web search. Very practical answer to complex oxidation/rust issues.

[monkeymissile]

coatings

In general the header wrap tape has a reputation for doing some pretty bad nasties. The header gets screamin hot in use, then the engine cools down until next use. We all know about condensation when a hot substance cools. Guess where are those lovely little water droplets end up? Yep, between the header wrap tape and header tubes: rust city!

In some circumstances that's just the price you have to pay in a difficult insulation problem. If possible I'd look into a more durable and less damaging answer, like maybe powder coating? Seems to me there's a similar process that actually deposits metallic dust on a surface under high heat to coat it, rather than just paint.

I have a contact at a local powder coater. Not sure if it's good for high temps though, I'll find out. I think I've seen some DIY ceramic paints that you then cure in an oven or outdoor grill. Something like that might be more cost effective than a professional ceramic coating.
This all may be a moot point if I can fab it all from stainless.

[JimmieD]

In general the header wrap tape has a reputation for doing some pretty bad nasties. The header gets screamin hot in use, then the engine cools down until next use. We all know about condensation when a hot substance cools. Guess where are those lovely little water droplets end up? Yep, between the header wrap tape and header tubes: rust city!

In some circumstances that's just the price you have to pay in a difficult insulation problem. If possible I'd look into a more durable and less damaging answer, like maybe powder coating? Seems to me there's a similar process that actually deposits metallic dust on a surface under high heat to coat it, rather than just paint.

[monkeymissile]

primary diameter

One thing to keep in mind is that headers can get hotter than the hinges of **** - those orange-red pics you see in car mags aren't just seen on turbo setups. Thermal coating inside and out would be a very good idea. Don't want any oil/ gas leaks either- your truck will burn to the ground faster than you can say "French Toast". Coolant is flammable after the water boils off- vehicles have been lost to fires due to coolant leaks also. The Jeep 4.0 motor figures out to ~ 244 cu in, so dimensions for it should be close for the 230/251 engines. The Thorley uses 1 5/8" for primaries, 2 1/4" for the two branches, and 2 1/2" into the last collector. Your dimension for the ports was 1 1/4", so we might want to do 1 1/2" on the primaries.

yes, ports are only 1.25". I suppose there wouldn't be a problem if the primaries were a larger 1.5" as you suggest. It does make finding OTS merge collectors easier since it's a more common size.
Ceramic coating would be sweet, but pricey. Maybe that header heat-wrap tape I've seen? I realize I'm going to need to make some custom heat shields for fuel pump, etc.

[maineSS]

One thing to keep in mind is that headers can get hotter than the hinges of **** - those orange-red pics you see in car mags aren't just seen on turbo setups. Thermal coating inside and out would be a very good idea. Don't want any oil/ gas leaks either- your truck will burn to the ground faster than you can say "French Toast". Coolant is flammable after the water boils off- vehicles have been lost to fires due to coolant leaks also. The Jeep 4.0 motor figures out to ~ 244 cu in, so dimensions for it should be close for the 230/251 engines. The Thorley uses 1 5/8" for primaries, 2 1/4" for the two branches, and 2 1/2" into the last collector. Your dimension for the ports was 1 1/4", so we might want to do 1 1/2" on the primaries.

[monkeymissile]

I think my goal is somewhere between 2 and 3. I am pretty sure my design will be more efficient than stock and since I plan to build it, it won't be too complicated that it can't easily be reproduced.
I think I now fully understand the Tri-Y concept with pairing the 180 degree cylinders, but that likely means pipe pairs of greatly different lengths unless I make some pairs longer than they need to be. This may start to complicate fabrication. Therefore I have just started a 3D CAD model of both the Tri-Y design and the more traditional 3-2-1 (Langdon style) design to see which one is easier to build. It looks like S&S, SPD and some other header shops have an assortment of collectors that could work with either design.
I'll post images of the two designs as they develop.
Thanks for all the continued input and support. The Thorley page was very informative.

Justin

[JimmieD]

No doubt life is a series of choices. It would be much easier if objectives didn't get in the way! We know that in planning a war a man must first determine the cost, and then only if practical, get on with the objective.

There are several possibilities:

1] design and build something that offers little improvement but creates personal monentary gain

2] design and build something that works better and offers some improvement over stock and is saleable at some profit

3] design and build something that is as good as the best available, and offer at a lower cost hoping to beat the market

4] design and build the most efficent device for the purpose and be prepared to absorb the cost regardless

#4 relates to the fact that sometimes a man has something to say that is hard to express in simple words. I don't much care for the company and some of its ideals, but for more info see the link, and look closely at the 'bundle of snakes'....

http://gpma.org/Archive/gt40s.html