Opinions Wanted

[MoparNorm]

He'll be testy after reading that line.

Ha! Ha!
Not at all, although the pain from the surgery shortens my patience.
All opinions are welcomed, whether substantiated by facts or not. I know for a fact that the engineers working with this project have both more engineering expertise AND experience than some here would suspect. One fellow not only worked at AMC, he also designed the Humvee AND Ram suspensions and he is not easily swayed by seat of the pants BS or made up stats, these guys have plenty of data and off road racing experience, you have to convince them with proof, flashing lights and mirrors don't go far with them.

And for the record, the guys driving those trucks in the photo could take those all stock vehicles to the tip of Baja, before there were ANY roads and to Canyonlands before it was known as Moab, they did it with stock tires, stock gears, open diffs and skinny tires, and except for the fact that are all residing in the Big Jeep in the Sky, could still out drive any of us here....= )

[NNICKB]

Well I am glad that Norm is alive and well and since he has a little time on his hands perhaps he can do some research for us.

This whole question of leaf springs over or under the axle has me thinking.
I have been wandering around poking under different vehicles...my Cherokee XJ has leafs in the rear, and they are on top.

I agree that placing the springs below compromises the ground clearance, though not excessively so. The glory of the live axle is that it moves up with the wheels, and so it would have to be a pretty well aimed obstacle to stop the vehicle. But it could happen.

So, this make me ask the question, "Why did Jeep engineers do it this way in the first place?" I suspect it has something to do with the dreaded Jeep "yaw." If you are concerned with highway manners, leaf springs are really an awful way to locate the axle. Could it be that mounting the springs on top would cause more of a twist in the spring, exacerbating the problem? Is it harder on the spring itself? Does it raise the center of gravity? Does it affect the roll center? Or is it nothing more than a packaging decision?

C'mon Norm, ask those Jeep guys. Inquiring minds want to know...

[NNICKB]

Yeah, Joe Flo it seems that our stomping grounds are not very well known, not like the boys in California.

I must say that I AM impressed with the photos. I don't doubt that those old guys out there could outdrive us, with their stock trucks, stock tires, stock gears, open diffs, and skinny tires, AND nine foot wide by nine foot high campers on the back!

[greg rider]

I'm sorry for getting your dander up Norm.

[Joe Flo]

Norm,

I think you have collected enough opinions. I know you will channel them to right people. Hopefully, they will add value to the project. Thanks for letting us be a part of this discussion.

Rest up and get better soon.

Joe

[MoparNorm]

Well I am glad that Norm is alive and well and since he has a little time on his hands perhaps he can do some research for us.

This whole question of leaf springs over or under the axle has me thinking.
I have been wandering around poking under different vehicles...my Cherokee XJ has leafs in the rear, and they are on top.

I agree that placing the springs below compromises the ground clearance, though not excessively so. The glory of the live axle is that it moves up with the wheels, and so it would have to be a pretty well aimed obstacle to stop the vehicle. But it could happen.

So, this make me ask the question, "Why did Jeep engineers do it this way in the first place?" I suspect it has something to do with the dreaded Jeep "yaw." If you are concerned with highway manners, leaf springs are really an awful way to locate the axle. Could it be that mounting the springs on top would cause more of a twist in the spring, exacerbating the problem? Is it harder on the spring itself? Does it raise the center of gravity? Does it affect the roll center? Or is it nothing more than a packaging decision?

C'mon Norm, ask those Jeep guys. Inquiring minds want to know...

Jeeps have varied over the years from spring over to spring under, depending upon the model and payload.
Look under there again, while spring over raises the body height by the diameter of the axle, it doesn't raise the axle height or the differential height, both of which are the first point of contact when encountering obstacles.
Primarily it was done to lower the center of gravity and is a trade off between body clearance and roll center on side hills.
As for what made the decision, manufacturers are not like enthusiast. They have the engineers putting a system that must fit inside a design, designers trying for beauty and bean counters holding them all back with 35 cent per part variances, all restrained by the legal staff. So every vehicle you see in final production, is a balance (some good, some not) between all these opposing concerns.

[MoparNorm]

Yeah, Joe Flo it seems that our stomping grounds are not very well known, not like the boys in California.

I must say that I AM impressed with the photos. I don't doubt that those old guys out there could outdrive us, with their stock trucks, stock tires, stock gears, open diffs, and skinny tires, AND nine foot wide by nine foot high campers on the back!

You'll notice that the campers are inside bed campers with one a pop top and the other two Alaskan, pop ups, so they were pretty able for their day.
These guys were driving these trucks because their families became too large for their previous Jeeps, MB's, CJ's, FC170 and Willys Overland Wagon....= )

[MoparNorm]

I'm sorry for getting your dander up Norm.

Ha! Ha! Not at all, I apologize if it appeared that I was dandered...= )

Just wanted to clarify a few things.

[MoparNorm]

Norm,

I think you have collected enough opinions. I know you will channel them to right people. Hopefully, they will add value to the project. Thanks for letting us be a part of this discussion.

Rest up and get better soon.

Joe

We can allways use more opinions!
1968

[greg rider]

Ha! Ha! Not at all, I apologize if it appeared that I was dandered...= )

Just wanted to clarify a few things.

I just still think the fullsize Ram platform is too much. It is just too physically big for a Jeep line.

[W_A_Watson_II]

I just still think the fullsize Ram platform is too much. It is just too physically big for a Jeep line.

I agree, the only reason to build it on the RAM platform is if you are only building a tow rig for the Jeep crowd.

[NNICKB]

Thanks Norm. Really enjoy those old photos.

I need to come up with some kind of camping rig for the family. My boys are still pretty little, but they are growing up fast! Am thinking along the lines of a Dodge M886 or Jeep M725...

Keep healing.

[MoparNorm]

I just still think the fullsize Ram platform is too much. It is just too physically big for a Jeep line.

It may very well be, but no Jeep truck will be built from scratch.
It takes approximately 2-5 billion dollars to create a new platform, build the factory and tooling and then it MUST sell 100,000 units a year, to be profitable.
The Jeep truck won't sell more than 25,000 units a year, so it is forced to share a platform with some other product.
The Wrangler line is a possibility, but this fantasy design experiment is currently being done on the Ram platform to share as many parts as possible.

Note that any feedback about using other platforms or vehicle sizes is very important for the sake of the discussion...and once it becomes a real exercise, ...and I sign a confidentiality agreement,...you will never hear about it again until the public release, so post away. = )

[MoparNorm]

Thanks Norm. Really enjoy those old photos.

I need to come up with some kind of camping rig for the family. My boys are still pretty little, but they are growing up fast! Am thinking along the lines of a Dodge M886 or Jeep M725...

Keep healing.

Don't blink, they grow too fast...= )

If my children were still that age, I'd get this:



We were blessed to have parents that took us everywhere.

[MasterYota]

NNICKB - Post #58 was spot on.

My guess on Jeep starting with a spring under setup was probably due to size restrictions during the war. The shorter the unit, the less space it took up, the more they could put on a boat and send over to Europe. Military design demands needed to be met, including performance and packaging...

There is a driving gene that has been lost among the passing of generations. Nowadays we feel the need for lockers and gagets, and specialized parts to get there. All they needed was a sense of adventure, some common sense, and a little ingenuity with things got "interesting".

Anyone with a love for the outdoors (in any way, shape or form) has been lucky enough to have this gene passed on.